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Post by Telemachus on Jan 13, 2022 16:04:20 GMT
HS2 is a transport system designed for those who can afford it (and have a use for it) which isn't you or I. It will promote business which will have no direct or indirect value for the many. It doesn't matter who was, is or will be in power. It is a crime that the route called for the destruction of so many quite ancient natural habitats which was an act of government-sponsored vandalism. I've been looking for a picture of the Roman road laid straight through a pagan burial site in Hertfordshire but I couldn't find one so you'll just have to imagine it. It’s a transport system designed to modernise our Victorian rail transport system. Maybe you’ve never been to any other country, but if you had you’d know that most other countries, especially but not necessarily those in Europe, have vastly superior rail transport systems compared to uk. Yes of course the nimby luddites dislike anything new being built, but unless we want to remain locked in a bygone age whilst the world and the uk population moves on, we have to create new infrastructure. If you look at the path of HS2 then yes some countryside has been altered and a bit lost, but the actual amount of land used up by a railway, compared to the total “country” landmass of the uk, is minuscule and negligible. As has been said (but I’ll repeat it for the benefit of those who don’t want to hear facts) the point of HS2 is not particularly to cut a few minutes off the time from London to Birmingham, it is to create new infrastructure / additional capacity that allows more people and freight to be carried on railways, which surely is a far greener and better way than doing it by car and lorry.
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Post by JohnV on Jan 13, 2022 16:04:44 GMT
that's bullshit Rog ..... pure bullshit
HS2 is not a Conservative party project
I suggest you have a very short memory
The first High speed line was the Chunnel link .... HS1
HS2 after consultation between British Rail, Dept for Transport and HS2 limited was presented to parliament was proposed by HM government in 2009
I suggest you are forgetting what political party was in power while all the design and planning was going on and what political party was in power when it was announced.
In case you have forgotten the government that followed that was a Liberal/Tory coalition which after some minor changes, rubber stamped it.
This is not a one party idea of a "vanity" project, it somethinhg that politicians of at least 3 parties have agreed is needed
It is such a rare thing, I am astonished you can have forgotten it.
The tories have been in power a long time though, thus giving plenty of opportunity to drop the project, which of course they’ve chosen not to do. So you’re both correct to a certain extent. a strange logic.
Three political parties, all generally at loggerheads, have agreed that a complex piece of infrastructure is required to improve the transport link by rail along the country, enabling more and more traffic to be removed from the roads. A proper "Green" aim.
You claim to be a supprter of a greener environment but believe that this project, supported by all main political parties, should be scrapped.
Not just strange logic .... very strange logic.
Personally I don't like a lot of what I see being "developed" I would rather the elephant in the room had been dealt with years ago, be that as it may, Improving infrastructure when population is increasing is essential, otherwise we all gradually slide back into a slum environment.
I might not like it, but I can see the logic
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 16:10:16 GMT
The tories have been in power a long time though, thus giving plenty of opportunity to drop the project, which of course they’ve chosen not to do. So you’re both correct to a certain extent.
You claim to be a supprter of a greener environment but believe that this project, supported by all main political parties, should be scrapped.
Not just strange logic .... very strange logic.
I don’t claim anything of the sort, and neither have I stated the project should be scrapped. You're strange, very very strange.
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Post by JohnV on Jan 13, 2022 16:12:35 GMT
You claim to be a supprter of a greener environment but believe that this project, supported by all main political parties, should be scrapped.
Not just strange logic .... very strange logic.
I don’t claim anything of the sort, and neither have I stated the project should be scrapped. You're strange, very very strange. I suggest you re-read exactly what you have written
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 16:15:41 GMT
There's no need for the "bullshit" John.
I was commenting on current government spending which includes the vanity project which is HS2.
It remains a vanity project in my eyes, whilst we (as a society) tolerate working families who despite working all hours they can, and sometimes holding down two jobs, need to claim benefits and be supported by food banks to live.
It remains a vanity project whilst we tolerate homelessness and its causes by simply turning away.
I would choose to see money spent where it is truly needed.
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 16:18:20 GMT
The point is that Conservative spending priorities are not mine. Secondly money is always found for THEIR priorities ... so "we can't afford it" doesn't wash. Rog But there is a big difference between spending and investment. Perhaps we should invest in our people. Rog
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 16:22:44 GMT
I don’t claim anything of the sort, and neither have I stated the project should be scrapped. You're strange, very very strange. I suggest you re-read exactly what you have written I don’t need to re-read what I’ve written, YOU need to stop overthinking what’s been written. That’s the issue.
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Post by JohnV on Jan 13, 2022 16:26:11 GMT
I suggest you re-read exactly what you have written I don’t need to re-read what I’ve written, YOU need to stop overthinking what’s been written. That’s the issue. then you need to write more carefully, to avoid misinterpretation
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 16:28:54 GMT
I don’t need to re-read what I’ve written, YOU need to stop overthinking what’s been written. That’s the issue. then you need to write more carefully, to avoid misinterpretation [huge yawn]
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Post by JohnV on Jan 13, 2022 16:40:44 GMT
There's no need for the "bullshit" John. I was commenting on current government spending which includes the vanity project which is HS2. It remains a vanity project in my eyes, whilst we (as a society) tolerate working families who despite working all hours they can, and sometimes holding down two jobs, need to claim benefits and be supported by food banks to live. It remains a vanity project whilst we tolerate homelessness and its causes by simply turning away. I would choose to see money spent where it is truly needed. Rog With the way societies work (and have been working for a long long time, including the so called socialist states)
expanding the size of the cake is the only way to get larger slices.
re-distribution of the cake still ends up with a few getting bigger slices, just as it was before.
The only thing that changes is that it is different people who get the bigger slices
HS2 will hopefully produce a bigger cake ...... The first High speed links .... LNER GWR LMS etc certainly expanded the cake and our living standards and conditions even for the worst off in society are better than the poor prior to that time
If you can work out a system that allows fairer distribution of cake, without the fat cats appearing ........ I would support your efforts.
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 13, 2022 16:41:14 GMT
There's no need for the "bullshit" John. I was commenting on current government spending which includes the vanity project which is HS2. It remains a vanity project in my eyes, whilst we (as a society) tolerate working families who despite working all hours they can, and sometimes holding down two jobs, need to claim benefits and be supported by food banks to live. It remains a vanity project whilst we tolerate homelessness and its causes by simply turning away. I would choose to see money spent where it is truly needed. Rog For as long as you continue to call it a “vanity project” you haven’t understood what is behind it. One reason why working families have to hold down 2 jobs and work lots of hours is that they felt entitled to have children regardless of whether they were capable of supporting them, and feel entitled to receive state support for however many kids they feel like having. To fix this problem I would propose compulsory birth control until one can demonstrate one has the resources to support children. Something in the water should do it, with the antidote given to those who meet the criteria.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 16:45:33 GMT
The size of the UK land mass and the population density doesn't seem to make High Speed rail sensible.
It's actually very noisy.
France is a good example of a country with vast areas of completely uninhabited land. The UK has some but not nearly as much.
I'm no expert but I reckon the actual time saving achieved by "getting out of Birmingham faster" will be less than anticipated because of things like noise problems and other impacts on population.
Plus of course the time it takes to get the thing moving at a proper high speed.
It's pointless.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jan 13, 2022 16:48:02 GMT
There's no need for the "bullshit" John. I was commenting on current government spending which includes the vanity project which is HS2. It remains a vanity project in my eyes, whilst we (as a society) tolerate working families who despite working all hours they can, and sometimes holding down two jobs, need to claim benefits and be supported by food banks to live. It remains a vanity project whilst we tolerate homelessness and its causes by simply turning away. I would choose to see money spent where it is truly needed. Rog Yes but let's face it, the countryside is very boring with not much more than fields and trees and animals to look at, and as boaters our cruising experience would be greatly visually enhanced if we had a few trains whizzing along at 200mph to look at.
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 13, 2022 16:49:22 GMT
The size of the UK land mass and the population density doesn't seem to make High Speed rail sensible. It's actually very noisy. France is a good example of a country with vast areas of completely uninhabited land. The UK has some but not nearly as much. I'm no expert but I reckon the actual time saving achieved by "getting out of Birmingham faster" will be less than anticipated because of things like noise problems and other impacts on population. Plus of course the time it takes to get the thing moving at a proper high speed. It's pointless. But you are perpetuating the myth that it’s just about cutting a few minutes off the journey time. When in fact it is mostly about increasing rail capacity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2022 16:49:48 GMT
HS2 is a transport system designed for those who can afford it (and have a use for it) which isn't you or I. It will promote business which will have no direct or indirect value for the many. It doesn't matter who was, is or will be in power. It is a crime that the route called for the destruction of so many quite ancient natural habitats which was an act of government-sponsored vandalism. I've been looking for a picture of the Roman road laid straight through a pagan burial site in Hertfordshire but I couldn't find one so you'll just have to imagine it. It’s a transport system designed to modernise our Victorian rail transport system. Maybe you’ve never been to any other country, but if you had you’d know that most other countries, especially but not necessarily those in Europe, have vastly superior rail transport systems compared to uk. Yes of course the nimby luddites dislike anything new being built, but unless we want to remain locked in a bygone age whilst the world and the uk population moves on, we have to create new infrastructure. If you look at the path of HS2 then yes some countryside has been altered and a bit lost, but the actual amount of land used up by a railway, compared to the total “country” landmass of the uk, is minuscule and negligible. As has been said (but I’ll repeat it for the benefit of those who don’t want to hear facts) the point of HS2 is not particularly to cut a few minutes off the time from London to Birmingham, it is to create new infrastructure / additional capacity that allows more people and freight to be carried on railways, which surely is a far greener and better way than doing it by car and lorry. A bit condescending but it is you I suppose. Yes, the European system is better. But ours was nearly as good when Branson launched his Pendolino fleet - what happened to that? If you don't know the answer you'll find it interesting. The rail system is now only affordable to Joe Ordinary if you book well in advance. You'll have to dig deep for an immediate ticket. And there is a two-tier system in place already - if you want the fast train it'll be even more. But you go on kidding yourself it's the people's rail system.
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