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Post by Telemachus on Jul 10, 2022 12:46:19 GMT
getting out of an autocratic non elected superstate is number 1, 2, 3, 4, and on up to 125
Not being bound by continent wide regulations that have absolutely no relevance to an Island nation
getting out of a group (that thanks to Labour would have included us) is shortly going to be governed by majority decisions with no national veto
getting out of a group that is hell bent on certain fiscal policies that we, although not included, would be expected to pick up part of the tab.
getting out of being controlled by a parliament that is unable to introduce any new laws and is only able to pass or dismiss those presented by an unelected commision.
See earlier point. Trouble is this shit sounds great but hasn't resulted in any tangible positive so far (unless you like Yorkie bars). Well to be fair it has to be remembered that moments after we finally brexited, there was 2 years of global Covid followed in short order by Russia trying to invade Ukraine. When and if things ever get back to something vaguely normal, we will be better placed to judge.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 12:51:39 GMT
See earlier point. Trouble is this shit sounds great but hasn't resulted in any tangible positive so far (unless you like Yorkie bars). We need to do what they did but no one with a grain of sense would expect it to be quick or easy. Sounds great but also a tad worrying that you are ascribing the dawn of a new golden age to future generations who will have it all to do in a time when all the predictions ae grim.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 12:58:40 GMT
See earlier point. Trouble is this shit sounds great but hasn't resulted in any tangible positive so far (unless you like Yorkie bars). if things ever get back to something vaguely normal The trouble with history is that it's just one bloody thing after another.
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Post by JohnV on Jul 10, 2022 13:03:47 GMT
We need to do what they did but no one with a grain of sense would expect it to be quick or easy. Sounds great but also a tad worrying that you are ascribing the dawn of a new golden age to future generations who will have it all to do in a time when all the predictions ae grim. Long term decisions by their very nature are always made for future generations to carry out.
The road ahead is always unpredictable and the predictions usually are grim from one quarter or another.
It's the short term decisions that always screw the future long term results
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Post by naughtyfox on Jul 10, 2022 13:09:12 GMT
getting out of an autocratic non elected superstate is number 1, 2, 3, 4, and on up to 125
Not being bound by continent wide regulations that have absolutely no relevance to an Island nation
getting out of a group (that thanks to Labour would have included us) is shortly going to be governed by majority decisions with no national veto
getting out of a group that is hell bent on certain fiscal policies that we, although not included, would be expected to pick up part of the tab.
getting out of being controlled by a parliament that is unable to introduce any new laws and is only able to pass or dismiss those presented by an unelected commision.
See earlier point. Trouble is this shit sounds great but hasn't resulted in any tangible positive so far (unless you like Yorkie bars). Not British - sold out: "Yorkie is a chocolate bar made by Nestlé. It was originally made by York-based company Rowntree's, hence the name." "Rowntree Mackintosh Confectionery was a British company formed by the merger of Rowntree's and John Mackintosh Co. The company was famous for making chocolate brands, such as Kit Kat, Aero and Quality Street. It was purchased by Nestlé in 1988, with products rebranded under its own brand." "A single Yorkie used be able to feed a family of six for a week, now it’s hardly enough to give a sick hamster"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 13:12:38 GMT
Sounds great but also a tad worrying that you are ascribing the dawn of a new golden age to future generations who will have it all to do in a time when all the predictions ae grim. Long term decisions by their very nature are always made for future generations to carry out.
The road ahead is always unpredictable and the predictions usually are grim from one quarter or another.
It's the short term decisions that always screw the future long term results
sho nuff
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 17:09:23 GMT
Just a footnote and a personal view:
Britain enjoyed for a long time what was arguably the greatest and most successful global trading empire the world has ever seen. The reasons why the empire was established lies entirely in the fact that, by good fortune, Britain had an edge on new technology that began with Francis Drake's racing galleon and continued through the work of various inventors such as Thomas Newcomen all the way to Frank Whittle.
After 1805, Britain really did rule the waves. No-one doubted the invincibility of the Royal Navy until more than a century later in 1916. This in turn meant that the merchant fleet was well-protected from any marauder and produced an economic climate that Britain was very much in a position to dictate the terms of. This was the era of 'gun-boat diplomacy' and Britain was holding the gun. Life is easy when you have a monopoly.
Nothing lasts forever and we live in a 'monkey see, monkey do' world, demonstrated most recently to me by the reality that I can buy two brand-new Chinese clone engines for my scooter for the same cost of rebuilding the used genuine article, and the clone motor would arguably be better. The Germans faced a similar situation at the battle of Kursk. It has been well-observed that in the 70s British industry was laughing heartily at the products of the far-east while still rather arrogantly trying to peddle the out-moded tech of two decades previously; the world failed to buy it. Now the sun is going down in the land of the rising sun just as certainly it did here.
The USA had a civil war because some folks thought a united country "under one flag" was the way forward. Others disagreed. A popular view is that it was fought over slavery but this is untrue. The issue was just a convenient peg to hang one's political hat on; an easy question of morality that the multitude could grasp.
However you choose to view it, it did prove, from an economic perspective, a most successful venture. There's a lot of bleating about tradition and nostalgia in them there parts, principally from the descendants of the losing side (who also shouted a lot about statues). What it demonstrates to me is that 'together' works a whole lot better than 'divided'. Even the British empire at it's zenith relied on the co-operation of its subjects, however coerced.
In no way do I wish to suggest I am a fan of the methodology but Hitler was right about one thing - get everyone marching together and a lot can be accomplished. He was not defeated because 'good triumphed against evil' or some other soppy-minded nonsense but rather because Germany was out-produced. It's a rather obvious case in point that here is one country that has learnt from the past. Perhaps we should let the jerries organise things because they're clearly better at it than most. Is anyone surprised that Russia hates the EU? Of course it does. The EU is the biggest military and economic threat (in Europe) Russia has faced since 1941. Another case in point: what has the assertion of national identity done for Russia besides uniting the west even more closely against it?
Trying to hold on to the past is a pointless and costly exercise. Britain will not enjoy a new golden age; Farage is a dangerous idiot and his politics have a lot of appeal for other idiots. What a shame hate works so much more effectively than love. Ah well.
The damage is done. Brexit will fail just as completely as did the original saboteurs and it is a tragedy and a massive step backwards that at least the next three or four generations will pay dearly for. Still, looking on the bright side, after the imminent global recession not only will Britain be wanting to get back in the club but the rest of Europe will probably let us.
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Post by JohnV on Jul 11, 2022 17:59:40 GMT
Nah !!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 18:33:03 GMT
Yep, some don't seem to understand the dangers of pushing too much power towards the top. Hitler is a good example of what can go wrong. Globalism is great in theory but in practice the human race is incapable of producing a leader who has integrity and who is trustworthy. If a world leader turned out to be a megalomaniac, we're all screwed. One person can do a lot of damage in this volatile world, better to spread the risk....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 18:55:13 GMT
For sure the unelected and un-democratic nature of the EU as it stands is its biggest flaw, while the interminable nature of democracy also sucks. Nothing's perfect. Sometimes it seems autocracy has a lot going for it. The EU is neither. I'm still surprised at the swift cohesion of the EU over the Russian problem though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 19:15:09 GMT
For sure the unelected and un-democratic nature of the EU as it stands is its biggest flaw, while the interminable nature of democracy also sucks. Nothing's perfect. Sometimes it seems autocracy has a lot going for it. The EU is neither. I'm still surprised at the swift cohesion of the EU over the Russian problem though. The EU is just a stepping stone to globalism. I suspect the real battle which is being fought is the one for and against globalism. The WEF, UN and WHO all seem to be pushing for globalism. From the presentations I've watched by various world leaders at the WEF, Putin seems one of the few against globalism. Boris wasn't initially interested but a few months ago he seemed to be taking an interest.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 19:18:42 GMT
For sure the unelected and un-democratic nature of the EU as it stands is its biggest flaw, while the interminable nature of democracy also sucks. Nothing's perfect. Sometimes it seems autocracy has a lot going for it. The EU is neither. I'm still surprised at the swift cohesion of the EU over the Russian problem though. Putin seems one of the few against globalism. Of course he is. He's a despot. Don't worry, it won't happen till the space aliens show up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 19:31:10 GMT
Putin seems one of the few against globalism. Of course he is. He's a despot. Don't worry, it won't happen till the space aliens show up. Actually a mate of mine a few years ago said the globalism could go down one of two routes, the Roddenberry route or the Orwellian route. Let's hope it's not the latter...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 19:41:10 GMT
If your mate said it then it must be true. Who else is in the think-tank?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 20:01:30 GMT
Of course he is. He's a despot. Don't worry, it won't happen till the space aliens show up. ...the globalism could go down...the Roddenberry route... Personally I like the alternate universe scenario in Star Trek. In First Contact the humans shoot the Vulcans, nick their ship and somehow create an evil galactic empire. In this universe the humans are all craven self-interested pirates, the Ferengi are wholly altruistic, the Vulcans are subserviently violent etc. But the Klingons are about the same.
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