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Post by tadworth on Nov 2, 2016 7:39:20 GMT
canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/29739-2016-17-winter-mooring-terms-and-conditions This contract seems very draconian, and at first glance some of the terms seem to contradict canal legislation, they seem to think they can contract their way out of the canal acts again. "3.2 (iii) recover from you costs and expenses we may incur in removing your Boat from the Winter Mooring Site in accordance with this condition 6.9 below." CaRT cannot normally charge for moving a boat that is an obstruction. 6.9.1 "any costs, charges and/or and expenses incurred in relation to removal or storage or DESTRUCTION of the Boat or of items left on the Boat or any other part of the Winter Mooring Site;" The word destruction sounds like they are classifying boats on winter moorings as houseboats ? 7.16 You must ensure that you continue to keep your Boat insured as required in your Boat Licence terms and conditions. A contract condition that asks you to not break the law ? 8.10 You will not undertake any work to the Boat without our prior written consent... Bizarre ? 8.16 the Winter Mooring Site is in a location regularly used by anglers, you should leave at least 5m between your Boat and the next one along to allow space for fishing. You must be prepared to move temporarily to facilitate match pegging and where we are aware of when match pegging will take place, we will give you reasonable notice (usually 2 weeks). Paying for a mooring but have to move for maggot drowning ? No chance ! 9.3 We may go onto the Boat and/or Winter Mooring at any time in order to carry out any of our functions... Trespass ? 10.4 If you fail to remove the Boat within 14 days of expiry or termination of your Winter Mooring Permit, we shall be entitled to remove your Boat in accordance with condition 3.2 above or to dismantle or destroy the Boat in appropriate circumstances in order to move or remove it. In relation to any action we take in accordance with this condition 10.4 we shall be entitled to board your Boat to carry out such actions, and to recover any costs charges and expenses we may incur in accordance with condition 6.9 above. 'Dismantle or destroy your boat" ! No chance. 12.5 This Agreement is governed by English law and you agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts. Since when do you have to agree to be bound by the law ?
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 2, 2016 7:44:12 GMT
The link at the top of your post is truncated (and therefore broken).
I'll be very interested to see Nigel's opinion of this - it reads to me as illegal almost from start to finish.
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Post by tadworth on Nov 2, 2016 7:55:00 GMT
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 2, 2016 7:56:51 GMT
Well you have done even if you thought you hadn't. It works now ๐
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Post by tadworth on Nov 2, 2016 8:03:39 GMT
I haven't had my morning brew yet.
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Post by Gone on Nov 2, 2016 8:54:10 GMT
canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/29739-2016-17-winter-mooring-terms-and-conditions This contract seems very draconian, and at first glance some of the terms seem to contradict canal legislation, they seem to think they can contract their way out of the canal acts again. "3.2 (iii) recover from you costs and expenses we may incur in removing your Boat from the Winter Mooring Site in accordance with this condition 6.9 below." CaRT cannot normally charge for moving a boat that is an obstruction. Yes, but by agreeing to the T's&C's you have agreed that they can charge you for moving the boat from the winter mooring6.9.1 "any costs, charges and/or and expenses incurred in relation to removal or storage or DESTRUCTION of the Boat or of items left on the Boat or any other part of the Winter Mooring Site;" The word destruction sounds like they are classifying boats on winter moorings as houseboats ? No, I think this is to cover them should they do damage or destroy your boat in moving it, or if you subsequently fail to recover it.7.16 You must ensure that you continue to keep your Boat insured as required in your Boat Licence terms and conditions. A contract condition that asks you to not break the law ? But if your insurance should lapse then you have broken the T's&C's of the mooring agreement and they can then terminate said agreement immediately and without recourse to any court action1 8.10 You will not undertake any work to the Boat without our prior written consent... Bizarre ? This is I suspect is not to prevent say a bit of cleaning or painting, but it would allow them to take action under the T's&C's should you start - for example - removing large sections of cabin with an angle grinder and welding new plates on. But as written it sucks.8.16 the Winter Mooring Site is in a location regularly used by anglers, you should leave at least 5m between your Boat and the next one along to allow space for fishing. You must be prepared to move temporarily to facilitate match pegging and where we are aware of when match pegging will take place, we will give you reasonable notice (usually 2 weeks). Paying for a mooring but have to move for maggot drowning ? No chance ! Refuse to move and they have the right to move you or terminate the agreement (or both) as specified in the T's&C's that you 'agreed' to.9.3 We may go onto the Boat and/or Winter Mooring at any time in order to carry out any of our functions... Trespass ? Not if you have given your agreement by agreeing to the T's&C's10.4 If you fail to remove the Boat within 14 days of expiry or termination of your Winter Mooring Permit, we shall be entitled to remove your Boat in accordance with condition 3.2 above or to dismantle or destroy the Boat in appropriate circumstances in order to move or remove it. In relation to any action we take in accordance with this condition 10.4 we shall be entitled to board your Boat to carry out such actions, and to recover any costs charges and expenses we may incur in accordance with condition 6.9 above. 'Dismantle or destroy your boat" ! No chance. Again this allows them to take whatever action they deem reasonable to move the boat, so if you chain your boat to the trusts metal work along the bank they may cut the chain or if they prefer cut your boat to make it moveable.
12.5 This Agreement is governed by English law and you agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts. Since when do you have to agree to be bound by the law ?This is for the avoidance of doubt especially where the other party (boater) is based outside of England and may wish to argue that the agreement is bound by the laws of the territory where they live as that is where they signed the agreement if doing by post etc. My comments in Red above, but I am not legally qualified. I also found these two clauses worth pointing out:- 8.6 You must use smokeless fuel for your stove when moored anywhere close to properties which could be affected by your chimney smoke. 7.7.3 not use the Winter Mooring as your sole or main residence without our prior written consent; Also it looks like when reviewed the 'agreement' they felt 7.9 was not well written, but rather then put the revised clause in as another clause 7.15 as the clause 7.9 requires their permission to dry your washing on the outside of your boat. Can't see a court as seeing that as reasonable.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Nov 2, 2016 8:56:05 GMT
Total balls-up made of this post ! . . . Sorry !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Nov 2, 2016 9:10:59 GMT
canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/29739-2016-17-winter-mooring-terms-and-conditions This contract seems very draconian, and at first glance some of the terms seem to contradict canal legislation, they seem to think they can contract their way out of the canal acts again. "3.2 (iii) recover from you costs and expenses we may incur in removing your Boat from the Winter Mooring Site in accordance with this condition 6.9 below." CaRT cannot normally charge for moving a boat that is an obstruction. 6.9.1 "any costs, charges and/or and expenses incurred in relation to removal or storage or DESTRUCTION of the Boat or of items left on the Boat or any other part of the Winter Mooring Site;" The word destruction sounds like they are classifying boats on winter moorings as houseboats ? 7.16 You must ensure that you continue to keep your Boat insured as required in your Boat Licence terms and conditions. A contract condition that asks you to not break the law ? 8.10 You will not undertake any work to the Boat without our prior written consent... Bizarre ? 8.16 the Winter Mooring Site is in a location regularly used by anglers, you should leave at least 5m between your Boat and the next one along to allow space for fishing. You must be prepared to move temporarily to facilitate match pegging and where we are aware of when match pegging will take place, we will give you reasonable notice (usually 2 weeks). Paying for a mooring but have to move for maggot drowning ? No chance ! 9.3 We may go onto the Boat and/or Winter Mooring at any time in order to carry out any of our functions... Trespass ? 10.4 If you fail to remove the Boat within 14 days of expiry or termination of your Winter Mooring Permit, we shall be entitled to remove your Boat in accordance with condition 3.2 above or to dismantle or destroy the Boat in appropriate circumstances in order to move or remove it. In relation to any action we take in accordance with this condition 10.4 we shall be entitled to board your Boat to carry out such actions, and to recover any costs charges and expenses we may incur in accordance with condition 6.9 above. 'Dismantle or destroy your boat" ! No chance. 12.5 This Agreement is governed by English law and you agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts. Since when do you have to agree to be bound by the law ? The office chair polishers at Milton Keynes seem to be getting further out of touch with the real world with every passing day, . . . I wonder if some of them are overdoing the hallucinatory drugs ? As 'Tadworth' says, they are trying to re-write statute. They have been skirting round statute for years, and getting away with it, but recent times have seen this change to more blatant attempts to unilaterally replace it with self-conferred and considerably more draconian powers of their own invention.
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Post by kris on Nov 2, 2016 9:21:50 GMT
The clause about not doing any work on your boat without prior consent, is in their standard mooring contract now as well. It shows a complete lack of understanding about boat ownership I don't know about other people, but I do some job on my boat most days.
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Post by Gone on Nov 2, 2016 9:26:15 GMT
The clause about not doing any work on your boat without prior consent, is in their standard mooring contract now as well. It shows a complete lack of understanding about boat ownership I don't know about other people, but I do some job on my boat most days. I suspect they do understand, but by stating "work" which is a bit of a catch-all term they can take action as and when they like if you doing 'work' risks their property or causes complaint from others. Whilst I do not like this clause, and as written I feel it is totally unreasonable and unfair, I am not sure -from their point of view - how it could be improved without giving unreasonable boaters too much wriggle room.
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Post by kris on Nov 2, 2016 9:38:51 GMT
So your happy for them to be able to kick you off your mooring for changing your oil, if they decide they don't like you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 9:48:01 GMT
If CRT are trying to generate additional funding through 'Winter Moorings' the last thing they should be doing is making up draconian rules. From what I've seen so far down here, hardly anyone is taking them up as it is.
I've never really understood the legality of it anyway. I think CRT are probably Ok making charges for additional facilities but as for charging to allow a boater to bypass the 14 day law, where is that laid down? Someone must know.
Anyway, it seems as though a few boaters find winter moorings helpful. In practice it doesn't seem to be doing anyone any harm other than lighten a few pockets.
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Post by NigelMoore on Nov 2, 2016 10:11:04 GMT
I've never really understood the legality of it anyway. I think CRT are probably Ok making charges for additional facilities but as for charging to allow a boater to bypass the 14 day law, where is that laid down? Someone must know. Anyway, it seems as though a few boaters find winter moorings helpful. In practice it doesn't seem to be doing anyone any harm other than lighten a few pockets. I cannot be particularly exercised over this, for reasons CWDF members will be aware of. I will make some comment nonetheless, in line with bassplayer's above: - Most all of the objectionable clauses highlighted in tadworthโs OP are already within the โcontractโ you are alleged to have signed up to in your boat licence anyway; there is nothing particularly new or different. Leaving aside those details, however, there are two separate situations that are potentially existing, and it makes a considerable difference which might apply. If these โmooringsโ are on CaRTโs privately owned offside land [forgetting for the present purpose whether the registration of such might be fraudulent or not], then they are entitled to set such T&Cโs of use as they see fit, because as successors to the original canal company, they were and are entitled to create facilities for such use, in common with all private riparian owners, and to charge for them. The modifications to such rights as are recorded in s.43(3) of the 1962 Transport Act have, therefore, in this instance, a legitimate application. If, however, [as will almost invariably be the case] these โmooringsโ are along the public towpath, then my position is that the whole agreement is unlawful and criminal. What you are signing up to is nothing less than an agreement to permanently obstruct, for a period of some months, portions of the towpath: debarring other licence holders from the use of that to which they are entitled. BW/CaRT have established [albeit only at County Court level] that overstaying on towpath moorings is an offence under the byelaws and under the 1983 and 1995 Acts; the acceptance of a bribe to look the other way does not absolve CaRT [or the boater contracting with them] from that offence. That rather [in my own mind] puts queries over the legalities of particular terms within this conspiracy to defraud, into their proper perspective. Having set out my personal viewpoint on the legalities, I will maintain even so, that if boaters wish to buy into this protection racket, then I would not seek to interfere, simply because I have done my bit to present the realities, and the effect on my boating of those who choose this route is minimal. Why should I stir up trouble for others when I can live with the consequences, for now at least? The choice for wintering boaters is clear, especially in most places where these sections are to be found. There being no difference in facilities between these and any other lengths of towpath, why use them? The only facility provided is freedom from prosecution. I went for several โhealthyโ walks along the Brent/Grand Union Canal last week; from the pool above the Gauging Lock to the A4 is mostly [very badly] moored boats between โwinter mooringโ signs, where never boats were to be seen tied up in previous decades. All they โenjoyโ is the use of some mooring rings to supplement the hairpins at one end of the loose strings dangling between boat and bank. I tried to restrain myself, but find myself failing โ the one clause that I would demand CaRT insert into this agreement โ supposing there to be any legality to the whole โ would be insistence on securing the boat adequately according the byelaws, so that these boats do not obstruct normal use of the waterway by passing boats โ who should not be subjected to any necessity for slowing down past these agglomerations.
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Post by Gone on Nov 2, 2016 11:29:22 GMT
So your happy for them to be able to kick you off your mooring for changing your oil, if they decide they don't like you. If that was a question to me, then as I said in my post "........as written feel it is totally unreasonable and unfair...... " I did go on to say I can see why they did it, but I still do not like it.
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Post by Gone on Nov 2, 2016 11:29:49 GMT
So your happy for them to be able to kick you off your mooring for changing your oil, if they decide they don't like you. If that was a question to me, then as I said in my post "........as written I feel it is totally unreasonable and unfair...... " I did go on to say I can see why they did it, but I still do not like it.
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