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Post by naughtyfox on Nov 16, 2016 8:00:46 GMT
1. It's impossible to find a photo of the tram driver from the Internet, yet pictures those who died are all over the place. Why is this? The Daily Mail did have a photo of him at the scene of the accident (red ring round head to indicate), but that's gone too.
2. Seems to be little news in the past few days about the incident.
3. I'm still not sure how it can be claimed the driver was writing a text message whilst driving, as the driver claims he had 'blacked out', and may also have been asleep at the time. Is this the current trend of 'multi-tasking'? WHO made the claim that the driver was texting? Someone... surely...?!! On what grounds?
4. Transport for London has pledged to do “everything we can to support the families and all those affected”. Really? Seems they couldn't have been bothered earlier:
"Andy Nias wrote on Facebook that he and 29 fellow travellers feared the worst when their tram 'took the hard corner to Sandilands at 40mph'. He said on October 31: 'Oh mate...30 of us on the tram this morning and we all thought our time was up...tram driver took the hard corner to Sandilands at 40mph!! 'I swear the tram lifted onto one side. Everyone still shaking...it's mad.' Locals have raised concerns about the speeds trams can travel at the corner where the carriages derailed. Pat Rooke, 72, a nearby resident, said 'They (some trams) do come around that corner very fast sometimes, and it is quite a sharp bend.' "
"He added: “I used to work on the railways and I know what too fast is and this was much too fast. Mr Gadd shouted at the driver but claims he just laughed." From Wiki's Accidents & Incidents: "On 7 September 2008, a bus on route 468 travelled through a red traffic signal and collided with tram 2534 in George Street, Croydon. The impact caused the death of a passenger who was reported to have been thrown through the upper front window of the bus. The driver of the bus was convicted of causing death by dangerous driving a year later in December 2009 and was sentenced to 4 years in prison." Four years for one person, it seems.
I just get annoyed when it's all over the front pages (for so many News-worthy things) and then no follow-up details are given. I bet the tram drivers have now been told to 'drive carefully' but in a couple of years it'll all be forgotten and the speeding will commence again. Will any senior management of First Group /TfL be taking responsibility if proven a too-tight timetable was partly the cause? Don't hold yer breath!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 10:34:00 GMT
I'll give my thoughts later, will give me something to think about whilst a carrying out the seemingly pointless task of moving several tons of rubble and hardcore from Place A in 'Idiot Mansion' (where I put it in the first place) to Place B and then back to Place A
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Post by naughtyfox on Nov 16, 2016 11:52:33 GMT
I only try to seek the truth by cutting through the rumours and speculation and lies.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 12:34:22 GMT
1. It's impossible to find a photo of the tram driver from the Internet, yet pictures those who died are all over the place. Why is this? The Daily Mail did have a photo of him at the scene of the accident (red ring round head to indicate), but that's gone too. 2. Seems to be little news in the past few days about the incident. 3. I'm still not sure how it can be claimed the driver was writing a text message whilst driving, as the driver claims he had 'blacked out', and may also have been asleep at the time. Is this the current trend of 'multi-tasking'? WHO made the claim that the driver was texting? Someone... surely...?!! On what grounds? 4. Transport for London has pledged to do “everything we can to support the families and all those affected”. Really? Seems they couldn't have been bothered earlier: "Andy Nias wrote on Facebook that he and 29 fellow travellers feared the worst when their tram 'took the hard corner to Sandilands at 40mph'. He said on October 31: 'Oh mate...30 of us on the tram this morning and we all thought our time was up...tram driver took the hard corner to Sandilands at 40mph!! 'I swear the tram lifted onto one side. Everyone still shaking...it's mad.' Locals have raised concerns about the speeds trams can travel at the corner where the carriages derailed. Pat Rooke, 72, a nearby resident, said 'They (some trams) do come around that corner very fast sometimes, and it is quite a sharp bend.' " "He added: “I used to work on the railways and I know what too fast is and this was much too fast. Mr Gadd shouted at the driver but claims he just laughed." From Wiki's Accidents & Incidents: "On 7 September 2008, a bus on route 468 travelled through a red traffic signal and collided with tram 2534 in George Street, Croydon. The impact caused the death of a passenger who was reported to have been thrown through the upper front window of the bus. The driver of the bus was convicted of causing death by dangerous driving a year later in December 2009 and was sentenced to 4 years in prison." Four years for one person, it seems. I just get annoyed when it's all over the front pages (for so many News-worthy things) and then no follow-up details are given. I bet the tram drivers have now been told to 'drive carefully' but in a couple of years it'll all be forgotten and the speeding will commence again. Will any senior management of First Group /TfL be taking responsibility if proven a too-tight timetable was partly the cause? Don't hold yer breath! 1. I'm glad the driver isn't being displayed by media at this point in the investigation. The dead are obviously innocent so will not face a trial by media. I support a free press but the media should self regulate and unless there is real cause for thinking some sort of cover up is involved the media (and I include Social Media) should try to maintain a 'humane approach'. I don't believe the driver has been charged with anything (although I may be wrong on this point). 2. Life moves on, at the moment there is little to report that sells papers or outrages people. 3. The RAIB will be 'crawling allover' TfL and First Group, all the comments made by people will form part of the investigation. When a traumatic incident occurs people say and remember things to try to make sense of what has happened, it takes time to sort though what are true memories or those that may be false. Your last comment. It's unlikely that anyone senior will be held legally to account as the burden of proof is hard in Corporate Manslaughter cases (Note, I'm not saying this is a case of CM). Business/personal reputations do get ruined though once the official investigation is concluded.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 14:29:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 14:50:42 GMT
The headline is a classic example of what I have tried to explain - it would be far better to use 'Tram' rather than 'Driver'. The headline is surreptitiously apportioning blame on the driver. For those that don't know; Read London Tramlink as TfL, and read Tram Operations Ltd as First Group
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 16:39:25 GMT
1. When I read that a passenger had shouted to a driver that he was going to fast I assumed access to the driver from the passenger side was there - in that the driver could be seen, perhaps behind a plexiglass screen - or perhaps the driver can sell tickets also (as they can in Helsinki). I would have imagined that the driver was there for all of the passengers to see at the crash site - and for anyone else. Everyone's got a camera these days in their phones. I like to see what's what, and I would like to see a photo of the driver. Why not? All the passengers who died have their faces posted everywhere - did they ask for this? I think that could be deemed as somewhat disrespectful. I have worked in Helsinki with black African drivers, eg. from Ghana and Congo and Nigeria (as opposed to Somalia - plenty of Somalis in Finland these days), and I have seen that their cultural behaviour is very different to that of, for instance, the original inhabitants, the native Finns. They are on the phone blah blah blah blah blah from the beginning of their shift to when they go home, rattling out words as they drive along the routes, instead of really concentrating on the job. I ignore people who tell me you can concentrate just as well on your driving whilst doing something else, like listening to the radio, or chatting on the phone, because I know that's bollocks 100%. If I heard the driver of the Croydon tram fit this picture then I would not be surprised to find out that he was on the phone or playing with text messages. Those bus drivers from 'Darkest Africa' who were working (and probably are still there today) for Helsinki City were a friendly and social lot, and liked to talk to each other a lot, and I give them credit for that compared to the (some) miserable Finns who hardly spoke a word to their work mates - but work is work and the phone is for outside work hours if to be used for social purposes. I agree the 'Medja' should be jumped on for turning things into a circus rather than just reporting the facts. Who does know if the driver has been charged or not? Why not? What's the secrecy? I would, as a passenger, be slightly concerned to know he was driving the tram I'm on this evening... unless I knew that he had been cleared as fit to be at work... which seems unlikely as he claimed to have 'blacked out'. 2. As soon as I read he had claimed to have 'blacked out' I thought, here's that old bollox again - don't remember (Ernest Saunders case anyone?!) - first thing to get you out of the shit is to say you remember nothing or "I must have passed out". PSV drivers have medicals and should be young enough and fit enough not to have 'passing out' fits. Same thing with a tram driver in Helsinki about 12 years ago, squashed a motorcyclist (killed him) up againt the corner of Stockmann department store in the city centre and claimed to have 'blacked out' when it all looks like she was speeding to get through the light as it had just gone red and thought she'd slip past... Well, if it's good enough for everyone else, I have to remember to save that excuse for myself if I'm in a serious accident. No knowledge, remember nothing, say as little as possible. 3. I think you'll find RAIB have instructions from the Government to bend over backwards to accommodate profit-making concerns such as First Group, Stagecoach, Arriva, Virgin, Deutsche Bundeshahn, etc. How do you think they got awarded all the contracts for running Britain's public transport in the first place? Follow the backhanders to find the truth - only you can't as the Swiss banks won't tell you the details of the politicians' accounts. 4. to mjg's comment I can't comment. If the driver had genuinely suffered a 'medical issue' the vehicle could have accelerated. Those black African drivers I worked with would sometimes drive like crazy, even scaring me! But, you'd think that if he were conscious, even tapping out a text message, he'd have a clue that he was pushing it and would have controlled the speed. Perhaps at the time he had half-written a text earlier, and did actually pass out. I speculate, yes, why not, it's natural. The background to the crash, with speeding having been previously reported, seems relevant to me. Will we be seeing any real facts in the near future? edited as F.I. got their post in before mine: "The headline is a classic example of what I have tried to explain - it would be far better to use 'Tram' rather than 'Driver'. The headline is surreptitiously apportioning blame on the driver." - yes, I agree with you on this. 1. Rest assured the Driver will not be going back to driving duties for a long time. 2. Speculate away. 3. I can't guarantee that the upper echelons of the RAIB are not influenced by Government but I know some of the people who work for the RAIB and feel confident that there would be mass resignations should the influence be too great. 4. Speculate away. Facts take time to assess and sometimes this involves legal proceedings
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Post by lollygagger on Nov 16, 2016 16:41:07 GMT
Unfortunately "news" reporters have a bad habit of making stuff up, asking for comment and apparently that's journalism. This could easily explain the text thing, I find it difficult to imagine a more credible explanation.
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Post by smileypete on Nov 16, 2016 17:03:28 GMT
Would have thought they'd have CCTV in the cab and log details of all the journeys.
You can bet they have CCTV in the tram itself!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 17:37:11 GMT
The headline is a classic example of what I have tried to explain - it would be far better to use 'Tram' rather than 'Driver'. The headline is surreptitiously apportioning blame on the driver. For those that don't know; Read London Tramlink as TfL, and read Tram Operations Ltd as First Group The same article was reported on the News on Radio two tonight and I noticed they said 'The tram was travelling........'
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 17:39:03 GMT
1. When I read that a passenger had shouted to a driver that he was going to fast I assumed access to the driver from the passenger side was there - in that the driver could be seen, perhaps behind a plexiglass screen - or perhaps the driver can sell tickets also (as they can in Helsinki). I would have imagined that the driver was there for all of the passengers to see at the crash site - and for anyone else. Everyone's got a camera these days in their phones. I like to see what's what, and I would like to see a photo of the driver. Why not? All the passengers who died have their faces posted everywhere - did they ask for this? I think that could be deemed as somewhat disrespectful. I have worked in Helsinki with black African drivers, eg. from Ghana and Congo and Nigeria (as opposed to Somalia - plenty of Somalis in Finland these days), and I have seen that their cultural behaviour is very different to that of, for instance, the original inhabitants, the native Finns. They are on the phone blah blah blah blah blah from the beginning of their shift to when they go home, rattling out words as they drive along the routes, instead of really concentrating on the job. I ignore people who tell me you can concentrate just as well on your driving whilst doing something else, like listening to the radio, or chatting on the phone, because I know that's bollocks 100%. If I heard the driver of the Croydon tram fit this picture then I would not be surprised to find out that he was on the phone or playing with text messages. Those bus drivers from 'Darkest Africa' who were working (and probably are still there today) for Helsinki City were a friendly and social lot, and liked to talk to each other a lot, and I give them credit for that compared to the (some) miserable Finns who hardly spoke a word to their work mates - but work is work and the phone is for outside work hours if to be used for social purposes. I agree the 'Medja' should be jumped on for turning things into a circus rather than just reporting the facts. Who does know if the driver has been charged or not? Why not? What's the secrecy? I would, as a passenger, be slightly concerned to know he was driving the tram I'm on this evening... unless I knew that he had been cleared as fit to be at work... which seems unlikely as he claimed to have 'blacked out'. 2. As soon as I read he had claimed to have 'blacked out' I thought, here's that old bollox again - don't remember (Ernest Saunders case anyone?!) - first thing to get you out of the shit is to say you remember nothing or "I must have passed out". PSV drivers have medicals and should be young enough and fit enough not to have 'passing out' fits. Same thing with a tram driver in Helsinki about 12 years ago, squashed a motorcyclist (killed him) up againt the corner of Stockmann department store in the city centre and claimed to have 'blacked out' when it all looks like she was speeding to get through the light as it had just gone red and thought she'd slip past... Well, if it's good enough for everyone else, I have to remember to save that excuse for myself if I'm in a serious accident. No knowledge, remember nothing, say as little as possible. 3. I think you'll find RAIB have instructions from the Government to bend over backwards to accommodate profit-making concerns such as First Group, Stagecoach, Arriva, Virgin, Deutsche Bundeshahn, etc. How do you think they got awarded all the contracts for running Britain's public transport in the first place? Follow the backhanders to find the truth - only you can't as the Swiss banks won't tell you the details of the politicians' accounts. 4. to mjg's comment I can't comment. If the driver had genuinely suffered a 'medical issue' the vehicle could have accelerated. Those black African drivers I worked with would sometimes drive like crazy, even scaring me! But, you'd think that if he were conscious, even tapping out a text message, he'd have a clue that he was pushing it and would have controlled the speed. Perhaps at the time he had half-written a text earlier, and did actually pass out. I speculate, yes, why not, it's natural. The background to the crash, with speeding having been previously reported, seems relevant to me. Will we be seeing any real facts in the near future? edited as F.I. got their post in before mine: "The headline is a classic example of what I have tried to explain - it would be far better to use 'Tram' rather than 'Driver'. The headline is surreptitiously apportioning blame on the driver." - yes, I agree with you on this. 1. Rest assured the Driver will not be going back to driving duties for a long time.
2. Speculate away. 3. I can't guarantee that the upper echelons of the RAIB are not influenced by Government but I know some of the people who work for the RAIB and feel confident that there would be mass resignations should the influence be too great. 4. Speculate away. Facts take time to assess and sometimes this involves legal proceedings He's actually been bailed until next May!!Presumably thats to allow time for the full investigation and final report.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 18:43:26 GMT
Itv have just reported that the ccrv on thr tram wasn't working.
The guy from the RAIB said an aspect of the investigation would be 'driver performance'. Bit of an obvious thing to say really
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Post by Mr Stabby on Nov 16, 2016 18:47:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 18:59:28 GMT
Just in case anyone does not want to read the full interim report, I thought this might be useful, (apologies about the formatting) RAIB’s future action in the investigation33 During its investigation the RAIB will work in conjunction with other agencies to contact the families of those who lost their lives and those who were injured in the accident. The RAIB will also be contacting any passengers who were on-board the tram when the accident occurred, but who were not injured. 34 The RAIB’s ongoing investigation will include consideration of: l the sequence of events before and during the accident; l events following the accident, including the emergency response and how passengers evacuated from the tram; l the way in which the tram was being driven and any influencing factors; l the design, configuration and condition of the infrastructure on this section of the route, including signage; l the tram’s behaviour during the derailment and how people sustained their injuries; l any previous over-speeding incidents at Sandilands Junction; and l any relevant underlying management factors. 35 The RAIB’s investigation report will include recommendations to reduce the likelihood and/or consequence of similar events occurring in the future.
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Post by naughtyfox on Nov 16, 2016 19:02:18 GMT
Itv have just reported that the ccrv on thr tram wasn't working. The guy from the RAIB said an aspect of the investigation would be 'driver performance'. Bit of an obvious thing to say really Then an investigation into why the CCTV wasn't working is in order! Typical - everything in Britain broken. Ever seen the moving walkways at Manchester Airport running? Nope, neither have I! So, do any CCTVs work on the trams or are they just for show to make the passengers feel safe? The fact that the CCTV wasn't working points to more shoddiness at Worst Group - and what's this trick, who is running the show, First or Transport for London? It looks like some fiddle whereas First gets the profits, and TfL (the tax payers) get lumbered with the bills when something like this happens.
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