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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 10:38:10 GMT
The hazard with having it near the exhaust is related to spills and the fact that a hot exhaust could bring the diesel to its self ignition temperature then woof! the engine turns into a dog.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 27, 2020 12:38:50 GMT
shouldn't Regarding the fuel flowing back down the return pipe from the tank, I am surprised by that. I am pretty sure all the return pipes on boats that I have owned or worked on extensively either returned to the top of the tank with a swan neck or into the side of the tank high enough to be above the normal "full" level. I don't think I have come across one where it could syphon back ....... I would have thought that extremely bad practise Possibly TonyDunkley or Gazza might comment ? I have on my priority list to get a valve/tap fitted. I have asked for one before but people have just shook their heads and said "Don't need one, boats don't have 'em. Only for the in pipe." The marina owner here says only 10% of canal boats have taps for the return pipe. No swan necks as far as I can see, pipe comes straight out the diesel tank, and if diesel level is higher than pipe (say 3/4 to fully full) then there is nothing to stop diesel from flowing out. Yes, high time to get this seen to. We can't do everything as we are not always here on the boat, we have been doing our best to make it better and better, but have limited time. And it's hard to find people to do any work!! Bad design... yes! What idiot made it like this? We do not know what it looks like inside our diesel tank, so do not know the pipe arrangements. We do not have X-ray eyes. Anyway, on my list now... and I have been told our BSS man can do this job, or another fitter who comes to this marina sometimes. Come to think of it, why does the BSS inspection not demand valves on return fuel pipes? Makes sense to me. This is in fact just one of the reasons why I regard the BSS Examination as a joke ! John is right, . . and so are you, Ross . . . the return to tank fuel pipe (generally of smaller diameter than the feed) should NOT syphon back out of the tank if disconnected at the engine end, . . even if it's a gravity fed system with the bottom of the tank higher than the filter. Fuel systems which allow siphoning back in that manner are in fact a very real fire hazard. In the event of an engineroom fire burning through a flexible return pipe at the engine end, or fracturing/splitting and starting a fire by allowing fuel to leak onto any part of a hot enough exhaust system, they become a source of fuel to feed the fire with no means of being turned off ! Your fuel system, however, is by no means on it's own in having this 'built-in' fire hazard, . . . for which there is no specific check required under the BSS rules. The BSS blurb does advise on how the fuel return pipe connection should be made at the tank end to eliminate any possibility of siphoning, . . but, as far as I know, does NOT include anything calling for BSS Examiners to test for it in current or past checklists ! PS. A stopcock in the return pipe is one way of remedying this, but there are better alternatives. No time to explain them now, but will post up everything later on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 13:49:55 GMT
This is in fact just one of the reasons why I regard the BSS Examination as a joke ! There is a reason why it is called the BS scheme
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 13:53:41 GMT
naughtyfox it would be better to arrange for the leak off/fuel return to be directed to a fitting in the top of the tank. It's a bit awkward to do that but it's worth considering and looking into in my opinion. The problem with a valve is it relies on you remembering to open and close it. To be fair this might suit you as you seem to be incredibly well organised and would probably religiously do it. I would tend to forget it so would need some sort of reminder or even better a little switch on the valve which cuts off the supply to the engine starting system or illuminates a lamp on the control panel.
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Post by kris on Feb 27, 2020 13:53:41 GMT
In the event of an engineroom fire burning through a flexible return pipe at the engine end, or fracturing/splitting and starting a fire by allowing fuel to leak onto any part of a hot enough exhaust system, they become a source of fuel to feed the fire with no means of being turned off ! Yes... dead right... something I had not thought of before, never having had to fiddle with diesel pipes down this end before. Tap/valve sorting out ASAP. Damned good question - how can the BSS ignore something as important as this? Yet they fuck about measuring 'ventilation' when all of our windows and doors leak air! welcome to the reality of the bss “scheme” in many ways it was one of the first attacks on people living on boats.
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Post by kris on Feb 27, 2020 13:55:05 GMT
This is in fact just one of the reasons why I regard the BSS Examination as a joke ! There is a reason why it is called the BS scheme “scheme” is the correct word.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 13:56:52 GMT
Yes... dead right... something I had not thought of before, never having had to fiddle with diesel pipes down this end before. Tap/valve sorting out ASAP. Damned good question - how can the BSS ignore something as important as this? Yet they fuck about measuring 'ventilation' when all of our windows and doors leak air! welcome to the reality of the bss “scheme” in many ways it was one of the first attacks on people living on boats. My assumption when it came in as a legal requirement was that it was a way of getting rid of the scruffy boats. "they won't pass the test so will vanish*". Fortunately that did not succeed as some of the better examiners are boaters themselves and firstly they spotted the money secondly understood that a lot of the requirements were relatively pointless so a lot of boats are awarded passes when they technically fail. ETA add *or go unlicensed. It would be interesting to see the figures post 1995.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 14:04:00 GMT
The move away from paper BS tickets is another way of potentially getting rid of some of the more disorganised boaters.
My friend Paul had a boat safety done on his boat but as he has no address or email he didn't know if it was on the system. I called CRT and they said they could not tell me. So we had no number to put on the application form.
Managed to find out via my own BS inspector and I got Paul's boat licensed myself (under his name but using my payment and address systems) last week.
It's better to be licensed but the BS put an extra layer on making it more difficult for certain people to get it sorted out. This could explain numerous unlicensed boats. It's easy to assume being unlicensed is a deliberate money saving exercise and it is in some cases but not all...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 18:25:17 GMT
My Boat Safety man, who coincidentally has a Bukh engine (3 pot) in his narrow boat and is related to one of the directors of TW marine, would have requested that the pipe be rerouted as it is unsafe that close to the exhaust.
It is interesting to see it done like that I wonder why that happened.
I wonder if your engine has been changed from being sea water cooled to being tank cooled. A sea water cooled exhaust elbow would not present the same fire risk as the dry exhaust output stub which is currently fitted. That could explain the pipe routing. In fact it might go underneath a sea water elbow as they often bend upwards immediately after exiting the manifold before having the cooling water injected into the exhaust stream.
The slightly odd situation with the blue rope holding one of the water pipes lends extra credibility to this theory.
Plus Bukh are proper boat engines and proper boats usually had overboard cooling systems.
If the engine had been originally a sea water cooled arrangement in that boat then there would probably be a sea cock or a small bit of overplating where a sea cock was once fitted.
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Post by kris on Feb 27, 2020 18:47:17 GMT
welcome to the reality of the bss “scheme” in many ways it was one of the first attacks on people living on boats. My assumption when it came in as a legal requirement was that it was a way of getting rid of the scruffy boats. "they won't pass the test so will vanish*". Fortunately that did not succeed as some of the better examiners are boaters themselves and firstly they spotted the money secondly understood that a lot of the requirements were relatively pointless so a lot of boats are awarded passes when they technically fail. ETA add *or go unlicensed. It would be interesting to see the figures post 1995. yes obviously the scruffy boats and old boats. Especially the scruffy old boats.
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Post by metanoia on Feb 27, 2020 18:57:39 GMT
I would tend to forget it so would need some sort of reminder We already have a check list of things to do when arriving at the boat, and a list of what to do when leaving the boat. It takes us at least 4 hours to 'pack up' and leave the boat for its long sleeps. For diesel pipe valves, a simple extra precaution is a paper label over the engine start key hole saying 'Make sure both fuel valves are open You Idiot'. Whenever we do something, like turning the ignition key / starting the engine, we run through everything we can think of (gear stick in neutral? compression lever in correct position? is there anything obstructing the freeflow of the engine and any moving parts? as examples). Whenever we leave the boat we check electrics off, gas off (water heater), stove door closed. Away for longer hours we turn the main switches off, and the gas bottle off at neck. Sounds like a really relaxing kind of holiday.....
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Post by duncan on Feb 27, 2020 19:25:39 GMT
I would tend to forget it so would need some sort of reminder We already have a check list of things to do when arriving at the boat, and a list of what to do when leaving the boat. It takes us at least 4 hours to 'pack up' and leave the boat for its long sleeps. For diesel pipe valves, a simple extra precaution is a paper label over the engine start key hole saying 'Make sure both fuel valves are open You Idiot'. Whenever we do something, like turning the ignition key / starting the engine, we run through everything we can think of (gear stick in neutral? compression lever in correct position? is there anything obstructing the freeflow of the engine and any moving parts? as examples). Whenever we leave the boat we check electrics off, gas off (water heater), stove door closed. Away for longer hours we turn the main switches off, and the gas bottle off at neck. The thing is, it is unlikely that things are going to catch fire during the weeks that you are away from the boat, and everything is turned off. It is if it catches fire while the engine is running that you wouldn't want the fuel tank feeding the fire.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 19:26:39 GMT
That's what the single malt is for ETA reply to metanoia.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 19:29:54 GMT
We already have a check list of things to do when arriving at the boat, and a list of what to do when leaving the boat. It takes us at least 4 hours to 'pack up' and leave the boat for its long sleeps. For diesel pipe valves, a simple extra precaution is a paper label over the engine start key hole saying 'Make sure both fuel valves are open You Idiot'. Whenever we do something, like turning the ignition key / starting the engine, we run through everything we can think of (gear stick in neutral? compression lever in correct position? is there anything obstructing the freeflow of the engine and any moving parts? as examples). Whenever we leave the boat we check electrics off, gas off (water heater), stove door closed. Away for longer hours we turn the main switches off, and the gas bottle off at neck. The thing is, it is unlikely that things are going to catch fire during the weeks that you are away from the boat, and everything is turned off. It is if it catches fire while the engine is running that you wouldn't want the fuel tank feeding the fire. It's quite educational to drop small amounts of various types of oil onto the fire. You need a top loading fire to do this really. Even if the fire is quite low just a little glow a tiny drop of diesel onto the coals will be quite spectacular. There are some bombs which use diesel as an ingredient. Olive oil is good on fires as well but not sure if they do bombs with it. Someone will have tried it. Once diesel gets going properly it's a serious event. Although petrol is generally considered a more dangerous oil product than diesel the diesel will ignite without a flame or spark at a lower temperature than petrol. The main safety advantage of diesel is that it does not vaporise in normal situations. However once it does start doing that it's very bad news if not contained safely. Gas oil innit.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 27, 2020 23:48:45 GMT
I have on my priority list to get a valve/tap fitted. I have asked for one before but people have just shook their heads and said "Don't need one, boats don't have 'em. Only for the in pipe." The marina owner here says only 10% of canal boats have taps for the return pipe. No swan necks as far as I can see, pipe comes straight out the diesel tank, and if diesel level is higher than pipe (say 3/4 to fully full) then there is nothing to stop diesel from flowing out. Yes, high time to get this seen to. We can't do everything as we are not always here on the boat, we have been doing our best to make it better and better, but have limited time. And it's hard to find people to do any work!! Bad design... yes! What idiot made it like this? We do not know what it looks like inside our diesel tank, so do not know the pipe arrangements. We do not have X-ray eyes. Anyway, on my list now... and I have been told our BSS man can do this job, or another fitter who comes to this marina sometimes. Come to think of it, why does the BSS inspection not demand valves on return fuel pipes? Makes sense to me. John is right, . . and so are you, Ross . . . the return to tank fuel pipe (generally of smaller diameter than the feed) should NOT syphon back out of the tank if disconnected at the engine end, . . even if it's a gravity fed system with the bottom of the tank higher than the filter. Fuel systems which allow siphoning back in that manner are in fact a very real fire hazard. In the event of an engineroom fire burning through a flexible return pipe at the engine end, or fracturing/splitting and starting a fire by allowing fuel to leak onto any part of a hot enough exhaust system, they become a source of fuel to feed the fire with no means of being turned off ! Your fuel system, however, is by no means on it's own in having this 'built-in' fire hazard, . . . for which there is no specific check required under the BSS rules. The BSS blurb does advise on how the fuel return pipe connection should be made at the tank end to eliminate any possibility of siphoning, . . but, as far as I know, does NOT include anything calling for BSS Examiners to test for it in current or past checklists ! PS. A stopcock in the return pipe is one way of remedying this, but there are better alternatives. No time to explain them now, but will post up everything later on. The return to tank fuel pipe should be connected directly a compression/stud fitting screwed directly into a steel BSP bush welded into the tank top, or as second best, as near to the top as possible on the side of the tank. The fuel feed connection for any engine equipped with a lift pump, as opposed to a gravity fed fuel system, comes via a stopcock fitted directly into either a steel BSP bush welded into the side of the tank an inch or two up from the tank bottom, or to the external end of a steel dip tube emerging from the tank top and reaching down to within an inch or two of the tank bottom. The builders of some canal pleasure craft, however, make a practice of equipping the fuel tanks with two dip tubes instead of just the one single dip tube for the fuel feed to the engine, or sometimes, welding the steel BSP bush for the return line much too far down the side of the tank from the top. The fuel tank on Foxy's boat clearly has had either one or the other of these defects/mistakes built-in from new. How many BSS Examinations has it undergone and passed, I wonder !! As for the remedy, . . a stopcock in the return fuel pipe where it enters the tank is less than ideal. It's always going to be possible to run the engine with the stopcock in the 'off' position, . . which could lead to a build-up of air in the filter head, . . . and cause the engine to conk out, probably at the worst possible moment ! Worse still, however, is the possibility in the event of a fuel fire of having to access the cock and turn it off with the engineroom already ablaze ! Simplest and quickest solution for Foxy's boat would be to fit a diesel fuel line check valve in the flexible section of the tank return line close to where it joins the rigid return pipe on the support strut on the port side of the engine compartment. Suitable check valves are easily obtainable for around £5 - £8 from either diesel fuel injection specialists or online suppliers such as ASAP. Here's a link to an 8mm Check Valve of the sort needed, . . . other sizes, smaller or larger are also available : < injectionpumps.co.uk/product/8mm-barb-non-return-valve/ >
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