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Post by emma on Oct 15, 2016 13:51:27 GMT
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Post by carlt on Oct 15, 2016 13:59:32 GMT
I'm not speaking for myself at all... If I only spoke for myself then I would vote Tory. That very fact (to me anyway) that it continues, is down to (a) people happy to accept it, and (b) people quite simply ain't bothered enough to do something about it. I'm not for one moment suggesting I agree with the way things are, but I accept (finally) that the majority don't give a shit. Not just you. I agree entirely. The problem is that those who suffer to feed the excesses of the rich are becoming the majority. It is ironic that Jeremy Hunt speaks about doctors, once the upper middle class elite, in the same tone that Thatcher spoke about the miners, plant workers and the like. When it comes to collar fashion white is the new blue.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 14:06:41 GMT
That very fact (to me anyway) that it continues, is down to (a) people happy to accept it, and (b) people quite simply ain't bothered enough to do something about it. I'm not for one moment suggesting I agree with the way things are, but I accept (finally) that the majority don't give a shit. Not just you. I agree entirely. The problem is that those who suffer to feed the excesses of the rich are becoming the majority. It is ironic that Jeremy Hunt speaks about doctors, once the upper middle class elite, in the same tone that Thatcher spoke about the miners, plant workers and the like. When it comes to collar fashion white is the new blue. Well, again, that's in reality down to us isn't it. If we disagree with hunt, then each and every one of us should remind our local mp of his-our position, but that won't happen will it. Even I have noticed over the last ten years, "the I'm OK jack" numbers increasing, and frankly, I don't think that attitude will change in my lifetime.
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Post by carlt on Oct 15, 2016 14:19:23 GMT
Not just you. I agree entirely. Well, again, that's in reality down to us isn't it. If we disagree with hunt, then each and every one of us should remind our local mp of his-our position, but that won't happen will it. Even I have noticed over the last ten years, "the I'm OK jack" numbers increasing, and frankly, I don't think that attitude will change in my lifetime. I "thumbed" you because I agree entirely but then I noticed it added "carlt likes this" and I don't...It makes me very sad.
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Post by Albion on Oct 15, 2016 14:22:28 GMT
Here's another bit of research for you; www.thesaturdayeconomist.com/the-great-devaluation-myth--uk-and-sterling.htmland, i'm sorry, I'm one of those sad and out of touch people who still place store by experts; www.thesaturdayeconomist.com/latest-update/all-eyes-on-sterling-how-low-can-it-goOil is currently at a low but that's not something we can rely on long term but even so, in domestic terms; "Oil price rises and the currency fall, will increase fuel price pressures by over 30% this quarter and by almost 80% in the first quarter next year. Manufacturing input costs already rising by 8%, will rise higher, pushing manufacturing output costs higher too. The feed though of petrol prices, commodity prices, food and beverages may push CPI inflation above 4% in the first quarter next year. The governor has suggested the MPC will "look through" any inflation rise to defend growth and jobs. Once the Fed begins to make the move to increase rates in the U.S. there may be little option."You wouldn't be Lisa Marie Trump one of the mods (or ex-mods?) on CWDF would you by any chance. The ranting doom laden prophesies sound just like some of the FB entries by that person? Roger
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 14:26:41 GMT
Well, again, that's in reality down to us isn't it. If we disagree with hunt, then each and every one of us should remind our local mp of his-our position, but that won't happen will it. Even I have noticed over the last ten years, "the I'm OK jack" numbers increasing, and frankly, I don't think that attitude will change in my lifetime. I "thumbed" you because I agree entirely but then I noticed it added "carlt likes this" and I don't...It makes me very sad. It makes me angry, to the extent I just don't know what to do, or how to deal with it. So I shout and scream at those I feel are partly responsible. Doesn't to any good though, which just frustrates more. Quite simply, there's just not enough of us.
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Post by larkboy on Oct 15, 2016 18:14:33 GMT
I "thumbed" you because I agree entirely but then I noticed it added "carlt likes this" and I don't...It makes me very sad. It makes me angry, to the extent I just don't know what to do, or how to deal with it. So I shout and scream at those I feel are partly responsible. Doesn't to any good though, which just frustrates more. Quite simply, there's just not enough of us. I agree with both of you on this, I too get angry and frustrated and don't know what can be done while things are as they are now. I was born in the 60's so can remember the 70's and 80's and bought my first house 6 months before interest rates hit 15% and we had to come out of the ERM. Black Wednesday at one point I was all for taking the keys back to the bank! It seems no one has any concerns past themselves these days and this country didn't used to be like that. Our politicians are all professional and have never done anything other than politics, no wonder they've lost touch with us, the electorate. Prescott may have copped a lot of flack, but he did have a real job before politics, as did Alan Milburn, so it's not impossible to come from the real world and achieve high office........just not the accepted route these days I fear.
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Post by emma on Oct 15, 2016 19:57:54 GMT
Here's another bit of research for you; www.thesaturdayeconomist.com/the-great-devaluation-myth--uk-and-sterling.htmland, i'm sorry, I'm one of those sad and out of touch people who still place store by experts; www.thesaturdayeconomist.com/latest-update/all-eyes-on-sterling-how-low-can-it-goOil is currently at a low but that's not something we can rely on long term but even so, in domestic terms; "Oil price rises and the currency fall, will increase fuel price pressures by over 30% this quarter and by almost 80% in the first quarter next year. Manufacturing input costs already rising by 8%, will rise higher, pushing manufacturing output costs higher too. The feed though of petrol prices, commodity prices, food and beverages may push CPI inflation above 4% in the first quarter next year. The governor has suggested the MPC will "look through" any inflation rise to defend growth and jobs. Once the Fed begins to make the move to increase rates in the U.S. there may be little option."You wouldn't be Lisa Marie Trump one of the mods (or ex-mods?) on CWDF would you by any chance. The ranting doom laden prophesies sound just like some of the FB entries by that person? Roger doom laden prophecies? how deluded can you get? these aren't prophecies they are realities....now.
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Post by emma on Oct 15, 2016 19:58:16 GMT
As in a bad dream, I have the sensation of falling. We British are on our way to making the biggest screw-up since Suez and, somewhere deep down, the new governing class know it. We are heading for national humiliation, nobody’s in charge, and nobody knows what to do. This Brexit thing is out of control.
It was really only this week that the scales fell from my eyes. Perhaps it was just the accretion of small observations, mounting in the unconscious mind until the heap broke the surface: but a nascent worry became a conscious horror. For me the horror dawned after a long discussion in a group who follow politics closely. Reading the runes, we were trying to work out — and only in broad outline — what the plan for Brexit might be. Scenarios were conjured, possible game-plans stress-tested.
But every guess, followed through, led fast into the nettles. As the dial moved towards the “soft” end of the spectrum of possibilities we repeatedly faced the tiger that the Leave camp so foolishly and cynically rode: immigration. Why ever would our EU partners offer us, post-Brexit, what they would not offer David Cameron before?
And what makes anyone think that in the new antagonisms generated across the Channel by our referendum result, the “soft” Brexit that we former Remainers crave will anyway still be on offer?
And as the dial moved towards the “hard” end of the spectrum, the massive economic uncertainties attached to the go-it-alone solution came crowding in. None of us knew how realistic the fears of a serious hit to Britain’s economy might prove: but we did know that for many in the Leave camp, and for the chancellor of the exchequer, those fears were real.
Then we thought about parliament. But when you do, the path of legislative scrutiny crumbles beneath your feet. Before she triggers Article 50 next March (and therefore before negotiations even begin) Theresa May is adamant she cannot show parliament her hand, and one does see her point — even though John Major did risk a Commons debate before he went to Maastricht. But after Article 50 is triggered and the Lisbon treaty’s ejector button has been pushed, reversing the process is practically impossible.
After March, parliament can say it doesn’t like the Brexit plan that emerges, it can amend the Great Repeal Bill by attaching conditions, it can even throw the bill out; but still we must leave the EU within two years — and on no terms at all if parliament rejects the government’s terms.
Besides, a darker possibility occurs: that the real reason Mrs May doesn’t want to consult parliament on her plans is that she doesn’t have any.
Bayonet the wounded all you like, Leavers, but the nation waits to hear your plans It was widely felt that the referendum would be a crystalline moment of national decision. We were to stay on one road or take the other. Yet nearly four months later we find ourselves still at the crossroads, arguing about why we decided to take the road less travelled — and where it should lead. The referendum’s sense of purpose has evaporated and we can see what always lay beneath: competing visions for Britain, each unable to command a majority by itself. They were pooled in the word Leave, and it took them as far as June 23.
But no further. The differences now within the Brexit camp are at least as sharp as between them and some of the former Remainers. Some of the veteran and most stalwart campaigners against the EU — Daniel Hannan MEP; columnists such as Christopher Booker, Andrew Lilico and Iain Martin — are prominent among those growing queasy about where Brexit could lead.
And from Mrs May herself? Silence. Allow me to switch the gender in my take on Benny Hill’s parody of a faux-heroic Edwardian poem:
They said it couldn’t be done;
They said she could never do it.
So she took that job that couldn’t be done —
And she couldn’t do it.
Several of us emerged from that discussion among pundits this week, each with our own perspective, but all with the same response. We were looking at a very serious impending road accident. “What the ****?” we were saying to each other. The scales, as I say, fell from my eyes.
For my friend, Times colleague and Leave campaigner, Michael Gove, to spend every paragraph — yes, every paragraph — of his column yesterday railing against the side that lost the European referendum campaign attests more eloquently to suppressed panic than anything we the vanquished could write. Edvard Munch’s The Scream hovered over his words.
The Freudians call it displacement activity, and it tells us so much. To our intense disquiet we find the victors, hollow-cheeked, still stalking the battlefield, kicking irritably at corpses, months after their war was won.
Bayonet the wounded all you like, Leavers, but the nation waits to hear your plans. You have the baton. Where are you going to run?
Blaming The Guardian, blaming The Times, blaming fat British businessmen, blaming golf, Marmite, Japanese car bosses and the governor of the Bank of England, lashing out at the “doom-mongers” and “naysayers”, the “international bankers” who would “talk our country down”, as though the strong fundamentals of “the world’s fifth-largest economy” that you promised would power us easily through are now candles in the wind, snuffable by a handful of weedy newspaper columnists . . . blaming everyone and everything but your own lack of an agreed plan, is futile.
Yes, we Remainers lost the referendum. Yes, we messed up the campaign. Yes, we failed to understand public discontent. Yes, we concede that you are now the pilots.
The initiative is yours. We await your proposals and we accept your right — even (as I have written) your duty — to proceed with them. But we want to know what they are. How do you plan to make this thing work? Michael Gove began his column with three short sentences: “Take. Back. Control.” I can reply with one: “How?” Or perhaps in the same vein: “What. Are. You. Going. To. Do?”
We ask because the suspicion grows that none of you has the foggiest. And if that’s true then you have betrayed the trust of 17 million people who thought you knew. Before the referendum you assumed the mantle of “us” in a revolt against “them” and profited mightily from that assumption. But now you’re in charge. You’re not Us any more: you’re Them, the new Establishment, the powers that be. You are the experts we were enjoined to scorn. So scream — because the people’s anger will be terrible. Mathew Parris, The Times, 15/10/2016
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Post by Albion on Oct 15, 2016 22:44:25 GMT
You wouldn't be Lisa Marie Trump one of the mods (or ex-mods?) on CWDF would you by any chance. The ranting doom laden prophesies sound just like some of the FB entries by that person? Roger doom laden prophecies? how deluded can you get? these aren't prophecies they are realities....now. So the markets have taken the opportunity to rattle a few economic cages. Brexit hasn't happened yet so you cannot say that your doomsday scenario is even a reality. Everyone knew that there would be some pain en-route to and emanating from Brexit. For most of us it was anticipated and accepted as a price to pay to separate ourselves from the bloated, wasteful and somewhat corrupt bureaucracy that is the EU. It is such a fabulous club that is trying to persuade its second largest net contributor to remain only by threatening us how awful it is going to be if we leave and how much revenge they are going to take when we have done so. That really is some club to belong to when threats are their only course of action. Roger
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Post by PaulG2 on Oct 15, 2016 23:50:38 GMT
Here's another bit of research for you; www.thesaturdayeconomist.com/the-great-devaluation-myth--uk-and-sterling.htmland, i'm sorry, I'm one of those sad and out of touch people who still place store by experts; www.thesaturdayeconomist.com/latest-update/all-eyes-on-sterling-how-low-can-it-goOil is currently at a low but that's not something we can rely on long term but even so, in domestic terms; "Oil price rises and the currency fall, will increase fuel price pressures by over 30% this quarter and by almost 80% in the first quarter next year. Manufacturing input costs already rising by 8%, will rise higher, pushing manufacturing output costs higher too. The feed though of petrol prices, commodity prices, food and beverages may push CPI inflation above 4% in the first quarter next year. The governor has suggested the MPC will "look through" any inflation rise to defend growth and jobs. Once the Fed begins to make the move to increase rates in the U.S. there may be little option."You wouldn't be Lisa Marie Trump one of the mods (or ex-mods?) on CWDF would you by any chance. The ranting doom laden prophesies sound just like some of the FB entries by that person? Roger Well, that last big long post by "Emma" is actually a copy and paste from a Sunday Times OpEd by Mathew Parris.
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Post by Graham on Oct 16, 2016 7:04:29 GMT
Well, that last big long post by "Emma" is actually a copy and paste from a Sunday Times OpEd by Mathew Parris. Thanks Paul, much less impressed now
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Post by Higgs on Oct 16, 2016 7:50:01 GMT
It's absurd to expect the electorate to be qualified enough to run a government department. Yet that same electorate is convinced it's right! You couldn't make up such contradictory stupidity. Even accepting that premise, it's the House of Commons Library, i.e. the repository of statute and economic wisdom that says "we have no idea". Yet there's a whole bunch of people who think you can run the country with the certainty expressed in a pub conversation. THere's even one gnome who was habitually shown with a pint glass in hand. Incidentally one of the heroes of your 'revolution' who now draws £163,000 a year in the European Parliament. Contradictory stupidity? The electorate were asked to make a choice. In or Out. We're not asked to study for a degree in economics or politics before doing it. We say, out - sort it. If you don't sort it, you will go under. Pragmatism. Any idealistic ambitions that I may have had, as possible ways the EU could function, have been totally junked by economic imperatives that govern the EU. It's almost like coming to the conclusion that I don't believe in god. No faith in the EU. We've thrown down the gauntlet, saying - tackle this, because you sure as hell haven't been following a script that makes sense to me. Relate hasn't worked, in an effort to avert the divorce. The councillor tends to be dictatorial and offensive. The magnitude of the problem is great and the risks are high. Experts came out on both sides before the referendum. What is the point of experts. The electorate cannot compare the facts, that would make them the experts. We have to rely on a collective intelligence, some very and other not so. Each side have their' ordinary and extraordinary minds. But in the end, we are same people who are allowed to vote by gut feeling or understanding or for whatever the motive, which suits the politicians to give them power ordinarily. The EU failed because it failed a majority approval. Equality of opportunity in a real sense was the referendum's main offer. It was right to use it, parliament could never have delivered such an impartial adjudication. They are still incapable of that impartiality. This subject cannot be served by parliamentary interference. They are anything but impartial. They may be servants of business or people or lobbyists. Teresa May is going to make enemies. If she can follow through the result of the referendum and make a success of it, she will appease some of the doubters and keep a good proportion of the public on her side and possibly guarantee a very strong after effect for the Tories. . Trying to please both sides may be called compromise, but may end up pleasing no one. You do not know, the electorate doesn't know where all the minds are going. When remainers push, brexiters have to push back. The EU is lumbering and can only run practically by a central authority. There's no place for national sovereignty or parliamentary sovereignty in that direction. That's not worth losing, for business and commerce interests: for something better, maybe. It certainly isn't the present EU.
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Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 7:56:25 GMT
You wouldn't be Lisa Marie Trump one of the mods (or ex-mods?) on CWDF would you by any chance. The ranting doom laden prophesies sound just like some of the FB entries by that person? Roger Well, that last big long post by "Emma" is actually a copy and paste from a Sunday Times OpEd by Mathew Parris. you managed to read all the way to the end? wonderful. without help? all the way to the bit where it says.... remind me
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Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 7:59:55 GMT
doom laden prophecies? how deluded can you get? these aren't prophecies they are realities....now. So the markets have taken the opportunity to rattle a few economic cages. Brexit hasn't happened yet so you cannot say that your doomsday scenario is even a reality. Everyone knew that there would be some pain en-route to and emanating from Brexit. For most of us it was anticipated and accepted as a price to pay to separate ourselves from the bloated, wasteful and somewhat corrupt bureaucracy that is the EU. It is such a fabulous club that is trying to persuade its second largest net contributor to remain only by threatening us how awful it is going to be if we leave and how much revenge they are going to take when we have done so. That really is some club to belong to when threats are their only course of action. Roger So you can afford this pain? you have reserves to insulate you? What about those on the dole? reliant on food banks? families just about managing? Will they? Just to remind you. The UK is right now, as a result of what Harold Wilson would have called "a run on the pound" 20% worse of in the cost of imports. That means, within a short time (or immediately if Marmite is part of your weekly spend) all those people struggling at the moment will have to economise over a fifth of their income. For how long? 2 years? 4 years? Come on, put your money where your mouth is (excuse the pun); tell me when and, more importantly, how things will recover. give me some counters to the things that are happening. Tell me the good that is emerging. Tell me how all this shit is going to miraculously go away if you lot get your way.* * by no means certain, see the high court for details.
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