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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 29, 2021 20:38:30 GMT
just look at the post office it could take years or swift court action, and I believe swift action because of the damaging evidence against another Big Wig 🙄 So again... What has your ‘top solicitor’ had to say after Mondays meet? When is your ‘day in court’ going to be and when will Planet be returning to Liverpool Docks? Anyone genuinely wanting to see "Planet" back in Liverpool should count themselves fortunate that the ship's rightful owner won't be making that decision based on the level of practical help and support he's had from those who run the city or the apathetic majority of those who live in and around it.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 29, 2021 18:48:18 GMT
It would seem the ball is once again very much in your court. However I suspect that if bigredlv really does have a pending court date then you may be waiting for the result. . Bigredly is Tony. What a disastrous day it was for the pleasure boating community when you didn't make it onto the C&RT Council as one of their representatives, . . I wonder if any of those who were daft enough to vote for you now realise how lucky they were that a sufficient number of others didn't !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 29, 2021 17:05:02 GMT
If I recall correctly, Tony, and others on his behalf, did attempt to purchase the correct permission for his boat to be where it was. The Trust refused to sell this permission, although Tony had fulfilled all of the requirments as published, for this permission. As the Trust cannot refuse this permision by law, Who is in the wrong?
Bod
The "permission" you refer to is presumably the Pleasure Boat Certificate issued under the British Waterways Act 1971. This Certificate does not grant permission for the boat to be there; it's the common law Public Right of Navigation that does that, although when moored the riparian land owner's permission is needed. The Pleasure Boat Certificate merely a registration, required by the BW Act 1971, and only applies to the main navigational channel. However, due to a somewhat perverse judgement in the Ravenscroft case, the "Main Navigational Channel" extends from bank to bank, but for registration purposes only, not dredging (get your head round the logic of that, if you can. I can't!) Tony had not fulfilled the requirements as published, as the boat did not have a BSS, which is (unless an exemption has been given) a requirement for the issue of either a Pleasure Boat Certificate or a Licence for the canals. (I accept that Tony claims he should have been exempted from having a BSS) It is unfortunate that the waters have been muddied as much as they have. The basic dispute appears to be about the need for a PBC, and latterly the use of Section 8 of the Act, but the issue has been complicated by BSS exemption criteria, bogus bailiffs, etc.Nigel Moore put it a lot more eloquently than I can. There is some truth and value in what you say, . . but let's be absolutely clear that the whole basis of my current dispute with the C&RT is the fact that it not only misuses, abuses, or violates every aspect of every part of every single one of the statutes that constitute its overall governing legislation as and when it so chooses, but that it is quite prepared to, and does, do precisely the same with ANY statute or anything else that stands in the way of its destructive agendas and its corrupt management. C&RT's unilateral abolition of the PBC in favour of its extra-statutory 'licence' to use PRN river navigations and abuse of the S.8 powers are but the rather more obvious peripheral symptoms of a far greater and hopefully soon to be terminal ill.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 29, 2021 13:10:08 GMT
Apr 26, 2021 at 6:13pm bod said:
You are partly correct. In that it is the Pleasure Boat certificate, that Tony is entitled to. C&RT do issuue a BSS Exemption, the requirements are published on their Website. Tony complied with all the published criteria. C&RT moved the goal posts by demanding, first photos of the craft, then demanding an unpublished condition. There is a process that would allow C&RT to alter the requirements, but this has not been put into practise, I believe the same process would allow for appeals against C&RT decisions.
Bod.
Spot-on again, Bod. Regarding boat safety standards on C&RT controlled waters, . . changes to them and the resolution of any dispute relating to them is a matter reserved solely for the Standards Appeal Panel - under paras. 12 & 13, Part II of Schedule 2 to the British Waterways Act 1995 : < www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1995/1/schedule/2/enacted > As will be seen from para. 12 of Schedule 2, the formation and maintenance of the Standards Appeal Panel, as well as the referral of disputes over boat safety standards to it, is NOT at the discretion of the navigation authority - it IS mandatory. C&RT don't see things that way, of course, and the decision not to exempt "Halcyon Daze" from having to have a current BSC, despite full declared compliance with < canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/733.pdf >, backed up with C&RT's own internal photographs of the vessel, was made by its own ad hoc 'standards appeal panel' consisting of so-called 'National Customer and Surgical Licence Support Manager', Matthew Aymes, and the Trust's Solicitor-Advocate, Lucy "the Law giver" Barry. The statutory Standards Appeal Panel called for under the 1995 Act, along with the Waterways Ombudsman Committee, was consigned to the same bin that C&RT keep handy for any other piece of legislation that doesn't suit their agenda or purposes on the day that the British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions Order) 2012 - the Order that abolished BW - came into effect.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 26, 2021 5:33:02 GMT
The original version of the above post appears to have been largely ignored since it was first put up three days ago, . . which is a great pity, because it goes to the heart of one of the most atrocious of the C&RT's habitual abuses of both the statutory powers it does actually have, AND the self-conferred and very definitely NON-statutory powers it consistently invokes as a means of getting away with unlawfully depriving people of their boats and homes. Behind the unlawful depriving people of their boats and homes, of course, is a piece of world-class pseudo legalistic nonsense that the C&RT inherited from its predecessors. British Waterways claimed, as do the C&RT, that under S.43 of the 1962 Transport Act, it had statutory entitlement to set ANY terms and conditions attaching to the use of the canals and river navigations under its control, as it saw fit and entirely at its own discretion. Utter nonsense, of course, which were it true would have completely obviated the need for ALL of the subsequent inland waterway primary legislation under which the C&RT SHOULD be conducting the overall administration of the inland waterways for which it has for the time being been made responsible - the British Waterways Acts of 1971, 1983, and 1995. I've made some additions and alterations to the original post, . . so let's hope it generates rather more interest this time round, . . and the right sort of interest from people who genuinely oppose the outrageous excesses to which C&RT subscribe in the course of its day to day maladministration of our inland waterways. Also, at this particular time, to focus the attention of those behind the current appeal via crowdjustice to raise funds for Judicial Review of the C&RT's extra-statutory T&C's onto where it should be, . . on the wholly erroneous foundation of those legally unenforceable T&C's, rather than pointless quibbling over the legality of C&RT's proposals to amend and expand a set of T&C's that never had any basis in law to start with. As you asked for comments, here are mine in italic bold against your statements. __________________________________________________________________ Nowadays the removal of sunken, abandoned or unlicensed boats without known or traceable owners - the sole originating rationale behind BWB asking for the inclusion of the S.8 powers within the 1983 Act - and which are specifically targeted under S.8 of the 1983 Act, is a rare, almost unheard of occurrence. The Trust has found a new focus of attention for what has become its routine and wholly inappropriate deployment of boat removal powers that were never meant for anything other than the lawful removal of derelict, abandoned or unlicensed boats without the risk of the BWB being sued for compensation by the owners. This is just your opinion, as S8 specifically allows for the removal of boats unlawfully (eg unlicensed) moored on CRT waters and makes no mention of whether the owner is known or not. Therefore I see no legal reason why unlicensed boats where the owner is known can not the removed under S8.
No, . . it is NOT - "just [my] opinion" - it's a fact. The Section 8 powers introduced under the 1983 Act were carefully drafted to protect BWB from the risk being sued for compensation by absentee ('absentee' in the sense of being unknown or not contactable) owners of derelict and/or unlicensed vessels that appeared to have been abandoned and/or unused for any obvious purpose, and who would only come forward to reclaim their previously abandoned vessels if they had been broken up or sold after removal from wherever they were abandoned, or had not survived being raised prior to removal, as many didn't. The wording of S.8 subsections (1) and (4) leaves this beyond any possibility of doubt : - 8.—(l) In this section—
"owner" in relation to any relevant craft means the owner of vessels.
the relevant craft at the time of sinking, stranding or
abandonment and includes a person letting a vessel for
hire, whether or not that person owns the vessel;
"relevant craft" means any vessel which is sunk, stranded or
abandoned in any inland -waterway or in any reservoir
owned or managed by the Board or which is left or
moored therein without lawful authority and includes any
part of such vessel. and : 4) If within six weeks of its removal by the Board any relevant
craft cannot be proved to the reasonable satisfaction of the Board
to belong to any claimant, it shall, together with any furniture,
tackle and apparel and any cargo, goods, chattels and effects on
board, vest in the Board: _____________________________________________________ A vessel that is sunk or stranded, or moored - see subsection (1) - may well have someone aboard, or at least in attendance, if the sinking or stranding or the act of mooring 'without lawful authority' is a recent occurrence, and such circumstances were dealt with appropriately. However, a vessel that is "abandoned" cannot, by definition, have anyone aboard or in attendance, and nor can a vessel which has been "left" - again, see subsection (1) - and, post the 1983 Act coming into effect BWB would in those circumstances proceed with the 'removal' process set down in S.8 - in the most practical and expedient manner possible, and in a manner in keeping with the particular circumstances. S.8 of the 1983 Act was, and is, simply a practical measure introduced to protect the navigation authority from being sued by the owners of abandoned or derelict boats that had to be removed from the waterways. It was never intended to be used in the manner in which the C&RT now do. It is NOT a (statutory) power that entitles the C&RT to "seize" goods, property or boats.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 25, 2021 20:50:20 GMT
Health warning: do not read when intoxicated. That’s a Rumsfeldism if ever I saw one! That's rather disappointing, . . I was trying for something more Sir Humphrey Appleby'ish !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 25, 2021 9:33:29 GMT
The Third Stooge will be along shortly. It's like waiting for a bus. That's not fair, Foxy ! The Three Stooges were quite funny, . . this bunch of goons isn't, . . just pitiful, . . and anyway, if you count up the number of different people bedruthan / jenlyn / Steve Jay / John Evans / Steve Jenkin / E.M.Bezzler / etc. / etc. thinks he is, there's a lot more than three of them, . . with something less than half a brain between the lot !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 25, 2021 9:20:28 GMT
T&Cs It is my understanding that the Canal and River Trust, is a creation of Statute, ie. a creation in Law. The Laws that created both British waterways and C&RT are saying exactly what the trust CAN do, not what they want to do. The Terms and Conditions, that C&RT have now imposed unless they are covered by either Statue or Bylaws have no meaning. Bod I think C&RT might be better described as more like the creation of a hallucinatory drug induced nightmare ! But you are right, Bod, . . what C&RT can do is very strictly defined in statute, . . but on the other hand, what it can't do is NOT only limited to what it isn't specifically authorized via statute to do. C&RT, and the C&RT management are also governed and constrained by the same statutes as the rest of us, . . and that includes being forbidden, by law, from ' seizing' peoples goods or assets. Only the Courts, and certain Government agencies, such as HMRC, have the lawful authority to order and to execute the seizure of goods or other assets, including boats. The C&RT management on the other hand have to content themselves with lying to and fooling their targeted victims and the vast majority of the boating public into thinking that it's lawful for some despicable little C&RT arse-wipe to turn up with some bogus 'Bailiffs' and a meaningless 'Court Order' and help themselves to someone's home, goods, and property. The dishonest means by which C&RT have successfully conned hundreds of boat owners, whose boats have been unlawfully seized under the Section 8 powers, is explained in detail in my post on page 239.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 25, 2021 8:41:46 GMT
The crowdjustice funding appeal page is still carrying this patently incorrect statement this morning : -
"Every boat needs to have a licence, otherwise it can be seized by the Trust."
--- and now there is also an update stating that the mystery coalition's lawyers have sent a "Judicial Review pre-action letter" to the C&RT.
An extract from this letter has been included in the update, and it appears that the primary issue that the Judicial Review will be directed at is C&RT's proposed changes to its extra-statutory boat Licence T&C's rather than the fact that the T&C's themselves are founded on the false premise that S.43 of the 1962 Transport Act was a catch-all clause bestowing permanently enduring and limitless powers on BWB and its successors to impose, as it saw fit, ANY terms and conditions on ANYTHING connected with the administration or use of ANY of the waterways for the time being under its control.
Unless there is a radical change in thinking and direction to challenging C&RT's authority to impose its own extra-statutory T&C's, instead of merely challenging the legality of C&RT's proposed changes to something without any basis in law in the first place, then whatever the final total that's raised will end up being spent on something more akin to a Judicial Revue !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 24, 2021 22:36:49 GMT
Hang on. So crt put water in the boat to stop it floating away and then section 8 it because its sunk. Would be laughed put of court. Section 8 0f the 1983 Act is a self-contained statutory power of removal of 'relevant craft'. Nothing more is needed by the navigation authority for the lawful removal [from its present location] of any 'relevant craft'. The problem is, however, that in practice the C&RT are NEVER content to adhere to the terms and operate within the constraints of S.8 of the British Waterways Act of 1983 and proceed with a mere lawful 'removal' of a 'relevant craft' (the term used in the 1983 Act) from the location wherever it is 'sunk, stranded or abandoned' or 'left or moored [therein] without lawful authority' - as the law permits, AND as the law strictly limits 'removal' action to. Whenever the need arises nowadays to remove a Section 8'd boat from the waterways the C&RT invariably chooses to grossly exceed the statutory powers that Parliament bestowed on the then British Waterways Board in 1983 - and which remain unaltered to this day - for the sole purpose of enabling the Board to rid itself and the waterways under its control of increasing numbers of sunken, abandoned, and (in the case of the man-made canals only) unlicensed boats, without the fear of subsequent compensation claims being brought by the owners of 'removed' vessels at some time after their unlicensed wrecks had been removed and, more often than not, broken up. Nowadays the removal of sunken, abandoned or unlicensed boats without known or traceable owners - the sole originating rationale behind BWB asking for the inclusion of the S.8 powers within the 1983 Act - and which are specifically targeted under S.8 of the 1983 Act, is a rare, almost unheard of occurrence. The Trust has found a new focus of attention for what has become its routine and wholly inappropriate deployment of boat removal powers that were never meant for anything other than the lawful removal of derelict, abandoned or unlicensed boats without the risk of the BWB being sued for compensation by the owners. The primary, and almost exclusive, use to which the C&RT now put the statutory powers of boat removal under S.8 of the 1983 Act is to target and remove unlicensed boats - unlicensed boats that are unlicensed only because they have had their Licences unlawfully revoked by the C&RT itself under its own self-conferred extra-statutory and therefore unlawful and unenforceable Licence Terms & Conditions. Having had their Licences unlawfully terminated by the C&RT under the ultra vires Licence T&C's, the boat owners are then subjected by C&RT to a County Court claim for Declaratory and Injunctive Relief which, put into plain language, means a written declaration from the Court stating nothing more than that the C&RT is entitled to exercise its statutory powers of boat removal under S.8 of the 1983 Act, accompanied by an Injunction forbidding the use of the vessel on C&RT controlled waters until the C&RT re-issue the Licence - which, again, is unlawfully refused by C&RT under the self-conferred ultra vires Licence T&C's, . . notwithstanding full compliance with the lawful, and only legally enforceable, boat licensing conditions, . . those that passed into law with the approval of Parliament, and are to be found in S.17 of the British Waterways Act of 1995. All in all, and so far, an account of conduct that should be beneath any reputable and decently run organization, . . let alone a 'charity' enjoying the patronage of our future King. There is, however, still worse to come. Not content with misleading the Courts into endorsing the inappropriate and contrived use of the statutory S.8 powers of boat removal, C&RT then proceed via the gross misuse and abuse of those statutory powers, and of the Court's blessing, to turn what should be, and invariably once was, a properly and economically conducted lawful 'removal' of a boat (a 'relevant' craft) from the location where it was left to a more suitable nearby location, into a major and very expensive logistics exercise. This expensive and totally unnecessary exercise invariably entails the unlawful 'seizure' of the vessel and any contents, and all to often, in the case of it being a residential boat, also includes the unlawful eviction of anyone inhabiting the vessel at the time, with the boat then being craned out of the water and transported by road to storage yard as far away from the location at which it was illegally seized as is practically possible. The lawful seizure of anyone's goods and property is process that is closely ordered and regulated in statute law and by the Courts, . . something that the C&RT consistently fails to acknowledge or to abide by, . . and from which it has succeeded in escaping the deserved and just consequences for nearly nine years. There now follows below a brief explanation of how and why the C&RT have so consistently got away this appalling abuse of power, and of due process, for so long. The sole purpose behind the sham 'legal action' by which C&RT obtain the Declaratory and Injunctive Relief (Court) Orders they're so sickeningly proud of is purely to acquire a piece of paper - the sealed (Court) Order - bearing a printed warning that the defendant's "assets may be seized" as a consequence of non-compliance with the terms of the Injunction that's included in the (Court) Order. C&RT's so-called Customer Licence Support 'Team' then proceed as if that warning that's printed on every one of the Declaration/Injunction Forms of Judgment they get stating that non-compliance could lead to the defendants assets being "seized" is something that the Court has already authorized and empowered the C&RT to do. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH ! It's a shameless exploiting, by the C&RT, of the boating public's lack of knowledge of Court procedures and paperwork. Seizure of a defendant's assets is a sanction reserved for ONLY the Court to order and execute, if necessary, and at some future occasion. Seizure of any of a defendant's assets, including the boat itself, IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE COURT ORDER that the C&RT obtain when Section 8 cases are taken to Court. The 'seizure' of assets warning is simply to make a defendant aware that THE COURT MAY ORDER/AUTHORIZE THE SEIZURE of any of a defendant's assets as all or part of a penalty imposed BY THE COURT at some FUTURE date AFTER another separate hearing listed specifically to deal with any alleged non-compliance on the part of the defendant with the terms of the original Order. It is NOT, as C&RT has been happy to leave all their Section 8 victims believing, a blanket authorization from the Court for them [the C&RT] to assume the role and authority of the Court and to seize and dispose of a defendant's boat and other assets at its own discretion and as it sees fit. C&RT have no statutory powers or any other lawful authority to 'seize' any vessel, other than in the event of the Court making an Order specifically to that effect, AND at the same time issuing a Warrant or Writ of Control to BE EXECUTED WITH AND AT THE SAME TIME AS THE ORDER, and by Court authorized and certificated Enforcement Agents or Officers [Bailiffs].If anyone has any doubts as to the truth of any of the above, then I suggest that they click onto this link --- < assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/688442/n16-eng.pdf > --- and read what's printed about one third of the way down page 1 on that N16 Injunction Order form, . . which is the Court form on which the claimant, the C&RT, drafts out the terms of the Injunction being applied for. Anyone still having any lingering doubts about the true meaning of the 'seizure' warning on the N16 Injunction Order form, . . as opposed to the meaning that the C&RT would have everyone believe, . . especially the Police when asked to attend C&RT boat seizures, should make a phone call to the Clerks in any County Court office, draw their attention to the seizure of assets warning on the N16 Injunction Order form, and ask them to explain what it means. Ask if it refers to rights that the claimant(applicant) will be entitled to enforce themselves under the Order using their own private Bailiffs, . . or if it refers to an entitlement to action that ONLY the Court itself has the powers and authority to order and execute. The original version of the above post appears to have been largely ignored since it was first put up three days ago, . . which is a great pity, because it goes to the heart of one of the most atrocious of the C&RT's habitual abuses of both the statutory powers it does actually have, AND the self-conferred and very definitely NON-statutory powers it consistently invokes as a means of getting away with unlawfully depriving people of their boats and homes. Behind the unlawful depriving people of their boats and homes, of course, is a piece of world-class pseudo legalistic nonsense that the C&RT inherited from its predecessors. British Waterways claimed, as do the C&RT, that under S.43 of the 1962 Transport Act, it had statutory entitlement to set ANY terms and conditions attaching to the use of the canals and river navigations under its control, as it saw fit and entirely at its own discretion. Utter nonsense, of course, which were it true would have completely obviated the need for ALL of the subsequent inland waterway primary legislation under which the C&RT SHOULD be conducting the overall administration of the inland waterways for which it has for the time being been made responsible - the British Waterways Acts of 1971, 1983, and 1995. I've made some additions and alterations to the original post, . . so let's hope it generates rather more interest this time round, . . and the right sort of interest from people who genuinely oppose the outrageous excesses to which C&RT subscribe in the course of its day to day maladministration of our inland waterways. Also, at this particular time, to focus the attention of those behind the current appeal via crowdjustice to raise funds for Judicial Review of the C&RT's extra-statutory T&C's onto where it should be, . . on the wholly erroneous foundation of those legally unenforceable T&C's, rather than pointless quibbling over the legality of C&RT's proposals to amend and expand a set of T&C's that never had any basis in law to start with.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 23, 2021 9:07:45 GMT
Missing the point, . . as usual, . . well done ! You avoided the questionTony, I can’t imagine you paying anyone to work on your mooring. After all you are as tight as a camels arse in a sandstorm. Which suggested to me it’s not your mooring anymore. Missing the point, . . as usual, . . well done !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 22, 2021 21:39:07 GMT
Unlike Mr Shit-for-Brains, kris, and you, dinky, . . I've got plenty to be arrogant about ! Can I be a bit inquisitive and ask if you had lined your lair with bricks and mortar before your vessel was towed away? This might be why some assume you lived nearby in bricks and mortar and not on your vessel. If so did you hand over watch keeping duties to your dog when in your lair? I know that bricks and mortar tactics was used in underground Anderson shelters during WW2 if canny home owners managed somehow to perloin the bricks. At night time during raids they lived sub terrain but their empty home was still their residence unless the Nazis after a quick raid wiped their home off the map in a very short space of time. That point might clear up a bit of the confusion amongst some of the posters, regarding whether you were living onboard. Does spending periods in a potting shed, lair etc mean you are no longer living on your vessel? Another question that intrigues me is how did you manage to live onboard and obtain food fuel etc when the bad floods affecting that Trent area continued? Many live onboards must have had to find alternative dry land accommodation during that period for their own safety, I would assume. Boats breaking free from moorings. Other vessels which had broken free hitting their vessels etc. Does that mean their vessels were in danger of being removed? Well, . . thanks a bundle for that, . . you've completely blown my cover story about living aboard and being evicted by the C&RT ! It wasn't a potting shed I was living in, . . it was the little brick shed that still stands on Barton Wharf from the times when gypsum was brought there on a narrow gauge railway to be loaded into boats. During the worst of the floods - Winter before last - the old brick shed got a little damper than normal, . . but it wasn't too bad, and only lasted for a few weeks, and it was a lot safer than being on the boat, . . no chance of a brick shed breaking loose and being carried away by the flood waters ! Heating and food wasn't too much of a problem during the floods. Betsy would swim out and retrieve floating driftwood from the river which we then burned in an old bucket standing on the shed roof. She also got very adept at catching ducks and rats which, supplemented with the odd dead fish that occasionally floated past, we cooked over the burning bucket of driftwood on top of the shed. Quite frankly, the C&RT have done me a big favour. Living in the caravan that I had to buy immediately after "Halcyon Daze" was taken away, . . just to lend credibility to the story about having been unlawfully evicted from the boat, . . has been a lot more warm and comfortable than that old brick shed on the wharf ever was.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 22, 2021 20:51:33 GMT
Unlike Mr Shit-for-Brains, kris, and you, dinky, . . I've got plenty to be arrogant about ! In fairness to me, I'm a bit arrogant about still having a boat. Quite right too ! It can't have been easy for you, . . only having one boat to start with !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 22, 2021 18:51:30 GMT
Missing the point, . . as usual, . . well done ! I thought he had the point spot on, you are an arrogant prick. Unlike Mr Shit-for-Brains, kris, and you, dinky, . . I've got plenty to be arrogant about !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 22, 2021 18:41:51 GMT
layer : - NOUN - a sheet, quantity, or thickness of material, typically one of several, covering a surface or body.or : lair : - NOUN - a place where a wild animal, especially a fierce or dangerous one, lives.Either include a least some measure of consistency in the semi-literate garbage that you post, . . . or change the thread title - yet again - to remove the word - " allegedly". Kris is dyslexic. So long as what he writes is understandable then it doesn't matter if words do not appear in the same form as they do in the dictionary, you arrogant prick. And you wonder why everybody hates you. Missing the point, . . as usual, . . well done !
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