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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 23, 2019 11:04:31 GMT
Blimey, . . a stunning grasp of common law rights of navigation reaching back over several centuries, AND, advanced mathematics ! No flies on you, . . . are there ? Incidentally, there's no such thing as a "River Licence", except of course, in the warped minds of the megalomaniacs who run C&RT, and mugs like you who swallow all the garbage they dream up and publish. I think we all know stabbys argument here centres solely on his personal dislike of you, and not on any facts related to your issues. He's pretty much clueless on these matters given Haynes never did a manual on it. I don't think he's significantly less clueless about things that are covered by Haynes manuals. Take him anywhere beyond crates of bananas and tyres hanging from lengths rope to sit in, and he's immediately out of his depth !
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 11:36:58 GMT
I was thinking that the SORN analogy is not a good one really. We have cameras everywhere on the roads, so very little time or money needs to be used to enforce judgement on those who abuse the situation. Cameras don't 'enforce' anything, . . they merely provide photographic evidence to speed up the Court proceedings. Without the will and resolve on the part of the relevant authorities offenders aren't pursued. The relevant authorities for the regulation of vehicle use DOES exhibit the necessary resolve to pursue offenders and apply the penalties prescribed by Parliament, the relevant authority for the regulation of boat use on canals and 'river waterways' DOES NOT possess that same resolve. It really is as simple as that ! I didn’t say the cameras enforce anything, as I said, they are used to save time and money in the enforcement process (if you read what I wrote!). It’s clear that CRT DO have the ‘resolve’ to go after people if they chose and it seems you are good example of that (rightly or wrongly). To put another side of the argument up. The fight you have been having with CRT over the MNC has been all over the boating forums for years. Any boater reading this stuff could be excused for thinking that CRT will come after us with full legal force if we step out of line. If your battle was about something more concerning like pensioners being bullied by volunteer enforcement officers, then I’m sure your case would have more sympathy. TBH. most of the stuff I have read on the MNC is just helping to scare monger people into believing that if CRT can go after learned people such as yourself, us small fry haven’t a chance. I know this is a very cynical view but the fact remains that you andCRT have gone through extraordinary lengths to fight an issue which frankly affects very few boaters in reality (at the licence payers expense I should add). Having said that, we do need people like you to flag things up when bullies get out of control.
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Post by JohnV on Feb 23, 2019 11:51:30 GMT
Cameras don't 'enforce' anything, . . they merely provide photographic evidence to speed up the Court proceedings. Without the will and resolve on the part of the relevant authorities offenders aren't pursued. The relevant authorities for the regulation of vehicle use DOES exhibit the necessary resolve to pursue offenders and apply the penalties prescribed by Parliament, the relevant authority for the regulation of boat use on canals and 'river waterways' DOES NOT possess that same resolve. It really is as simple as that ! Having said that, we do need people like you to flag things up when bullies get out of control. That is the crux of it. We need the odd bloody minded among us to prevent all of us from being bullied by those who believe they can make up "laws" to suit themselves, irrespective of the truth of the matter
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 12:48:34 GMT
Having said that, we do need people like you to flag things up when bullies get out of control. That is the crux of it. We need the odd bloody minded among us to prevent all of us from being bullied by those who believe they can make up "laws" to suit themselves, irrespective of the truth of the matter Yes but it’s equally true that the media can be manipulated to bully people into making them feel helpless!
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 23, 2019 14:18:45 GMT
Cameras don't 'enforce' anything, . . they merely provide photographic evidence to speed up the Court proceedings. Without the will and resolve on the part of the relevant authorities offenders aren't pursued. The relevant authorities for the regulation of vehicle use DOES exhibit the necessary resolve to pursue offenders and apply the penalties prescribed by Parliament, the relevant authority for the regulation of boat use on canals and 'river waterways' DOES NOT possess that same resolve. It really is as simple as that ! It’s clear that CRT DO have the ‘resolve’ to go after people if they chose and it seems you are good example of that (rightly or wrongly). No, you're missing the point. If you're caught driving an untaxed vehicle the DVLA will hit you with either a fixed penalty ticket issued by the Police for £300 and points on your Driving Licence or a fine of up to a £1000 plus the licence points, if you want to dispute the matter before the Magistrates. C&RT, on the other hand, don't have the resolve to pursue those they either perceive to be or more usually create as 'licence dodgers' via abuse of the Section 8 process, through the Magistrate's and the Civil Courts with the remedies and the penalties prescribed in statute by Parliament, which in the case of their right to recover unpaid licence or registration fees plus costs as a civil debt would actually earn them the income they're entitled to and would otherwise lose. Since their creation in 2012, C&RT have never taken one single licence or registration dodger to Court under the powers Parliament gave them specifically for that purpose. They prefer instead to misuse and abuse the statutory powers Parliament gave them to deal with sunk, stranded or abandoned boats with no identifiable owner, which in practice costs them £5000 and upwards per boat, often plus substantial legal costs, and NO income from it. If you're looking for someone to blame for the money wasted on this habitual abuse of statutory powers and due process by C&RT, try Parry and the team of spite motivated 'in house' lawyers who have recently replaced the former 'in pocket', greed motivated team. Over the years they have accounted for many millions of pounds that should instead have gone on waterway maintenance and repair.
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 23, 2019 16:32:44 GMT
I find myself siding with Nick on this one. SHOCK HORROR!!!!! CRT should not be compensating for the failing of the current law by making up their own laws. This is exactly why regardless of what we might think of Tony personally all boaters should be supporting him in his quest to keep an out of control navigation authority in check. I don’t think badly of Tony personally. He is grumpy, entitled, curmudgeonly, bloody-minded old git. But nothing wrong with that, there is plenty of room in the world for his ilk. And his fervent ranting does provide hours of endless entertainment. On the plus side, unlike some (many) he doesn’t seem to sulk and bear grudges and that, for me, is a very laudible trait.
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 23, 2019 16:34:14 GMT
Yes I would care to enlighten you. Well someone has to I suppose. The point is that if it were generally accepted practice to be able to keep a boat on the river outside the MNC without a “licence”, it would become popular amongst certain categories of boater. And when those people decided to take their boat out for a sunny afternoon into the MNC, the chances of being caught would be virtually zero unless they wanted to transit through locks. Of course I am not saying you would do/have done that. Well to be honest, I have no idea whether you have or haven’t/would or wouldn’t. But the point is to see the big picture. It is not just all about your specific circumstance, it is about the effect your campaign might have on others. But as I said earlier, you do probably have the law on your side. It’s not a good law and it should IMO require anyone having a boat on the river, to have a “licence” regardless of which bit of the river it is kept. But it doesn’t. A laughable argument, which if extended to SORN'd motor vehicles would see owners of laid-up vehicles, including non-runners undergoing restoration work, having to pay Road Tax to keep any kind of vehicle off-road on private land or inside a garage or workshop. There are prescribed penalties for using untaxed vehicles on the road, and there are prescribed penalties for using unlicensed or unregistered boats on C&RT waters, which incidentally, extend beyond a mere fine to the recovery of unpaid fees and/or charges as a civil debt plus costs - a fact which is consistently ignored by C&RT, and it's apologists. No, because as said the level of detection and enforcement is much higher on the roads.
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 23, 2019 16:38:58 GMT
It’s clear that CRT DO have the ‘resolve’ to go after people if they chose and it seems you are good example of that (rightly or wrongly). No, you're missing the point. If you're caught driving an untaxed vehicle the DVLA will hit you with either a fixed penalty ticket issued by the Police for £300 and points on your Driving Licence or a fine of up to a £1000 plus the licence points, if you want to dispute the matter before the Magistrates. C&RT, on the other hand, don't have the resolve to pursue those they either perceive to be or more usually create as 'licence dodgers' via abuse of the Section 8 process, through the Magistrate's and the Civil Courts with the remedies and the penalties prescribed in statute by Parliament, which in the case of their right to recover unpaid licence or registration fees plus costs as a civil debt would actually earn them the income they're entitled to and would otherwise lose. Since their creation in 2012, C&RT have never taken one single licence or registration dodger to Court under the powers Parliament gave them specifically for that purpose. They prefer instead to misuse and abuse the statutory powers Parliament gave them to deal with sunk, stranded or abandoned boats with no identifiable owner, which in practice costs them £5000 and upwards per boat, often plus substantial legal costs, and NO income from it. If you're looking for someone to blame for the money wasted on this habitual abuse of statutory powers and due process by C&RT, try Parry and the team of spite motivated 'in house' lawyers who have recently replaced the former 'in pocket', greed motivated team. Over the years they have accounted for many millions of pounds that should instead have gone on waterway maintenance and repair. So there’s one clue - drivers have a licence which can be revoked. Boater’s don’t. Drivers have a whole policing division checking up on them, boater’s don’t. Unless you would like to see even more CRT money being diverted away from maintenance and spent on enforcement officers spending their days tootling around in launches checking licences etc?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 16:59:41 GMT
It seems to me that people chipping away at the edge of the law is liable to eventually lead to the law being tightened up. Like they did with squatting in residential buildings.
There is plenty of freedom but some people to insist on trying their hardest to get those freedoms taken away just to save a few quid. And its not a lot of money a few hundred quid a year.
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Post by Jim on Feb 23, 2019 17:04:57 GMT
It seems to me that people chipping away at the edge of the law is liable to eventually lead to the law being tightened up. Like they did with squatting in residential buildings. There is plenty of freedom but some people to insist on trying their hardest to get those freedoms taken away just to save a few quid. And its not a lot of money a few hundred quid a year. What about a registered charity chipping away at the edge of the law? They should be setting an example.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 17:24:23 GMT
It is interesting to see how rapidly CRT attempt to enforce things they can not technically enforce under law - like ticketing people mooring to land not owned by CRT. Fast and furious bordering on harassment. I think they know they have not got a leg to stand on but are attempting to nip it in the bud.
"Might is right" Or was it "might might be right"
Don't ask me how I know this.
I do see both sides of it but as jenlyn has noted I am in fact a bona fide pisstaker so any views I express are worthless vapouring. I guess he must have spies which keep an eye on me so knows my movement patterns. This is a little worrying but never mind. Its a free country. At least for now. Once all the little freedoms we have are abused enough the door will be slammed anyway.
Such is life.
I also believe that the existing system basically works for most of the people who use inland waterways. Sometimes if you are a minority you have to understand that this means you may have to make compromises. Shouting about your entitlement is liable to bite you on the bum. And lots of other people will be bitten as well.
Its not as simple as "that is the law" you also have to be pragmatic. Or not.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 23, 2019 17:30:17 GMT
No, you're missing the point. If you're caught driving an untaxed vehicle the DVLA will hit you with either a fixed penalty ticket issued by the Police for £300 and points on your Driving Licence or a fine of up to a £1000 plus the licence points, if you want to dispute the matter before the Magistrates. C&RT, on the other hand, don't have the resolve to pursue those they either perceive to be or more usually create as 'licence dodgers' via abuse of the Section 8 process, through the Magistrate's and the Civil Courts with the remedies and the penalties prescribed in statute by Parliament, which in the case of their right to recover unpaid licence or registration fees plus costs as a civil debt would actually earn them the income they're entitled to and would otherwise lose. Since their creation in 2012, C&RT have never taken one single licence or registration dodger to Court under the powers Parliament gave them specifically for that purpose. They prefer instead to misuse and abuse the statutory powers Parliament gave them to deal with sunk, stranded or abandoned boats with no identifiable owner, which in practice costs them £5000 and upwards per boat, often plus substantial legal costs, and NO income from it. If you're looking for someone to blame for the money wasted on this habitual abuse of statutory powers and due process by C&RT, try Parry and the team of spite motivated 'in house' lawyers who have recently replaced the former 'in pocket', greed motivated team. Over the years they have accounted for many millions of pounds that should instead have gone on waterway maintenance and repair. So there’s one clue - drivers have a licence which can be revoked. Boater’s don’t. Drivers have a whole policing division checking up on them, boater’s don’t. Unless you would like to see even more CRT money being diverted away from maintenance and spent on enforcement officers spending their days tootling around in launches checking licences etc? What you're suggesting is complete unnecessary, and you know it is ! The means of catching licence or registration dodgers is already in place, . . all that's lacking is the will to use it, and to follow up with the appropriate Magistrates Court prosecutions and County County money claims. C&RT have dozens of their so-called Data Checkers mooching round the waterways recording the names, index numbers, and location of every boat they see and sending all that back to C&RT's main computer system. What could be simpler than picking out any unlicensed or unregistered boats cropping up in the Data Checkers info and pursuing the owners for any unpaid fees or charges ?
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 23, 2019 17:33:31 GMT
So there’s one clue - drivers have a licence which can be revoked. Boater’s don’t. Drivers have a whole policing division checking up on them, boater’s don’t. Unless you would like to see even more CRT money being diverted away from maintenance and spent on enforcement officers spending their days tootling around in launches checking licences etc? What could be simpler than picking out any unlicensed or unregistered boats cropping up in the Data Checkers info and pursuing the owners for any unpaid fees or charges ? Which is exactly what they are doing, and what you are whinging about!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 17:34:14 GMT
That's something I have never understood. It is basically a sound option to just go unlicensed. Keep moving. They don't do anything about it. Very odd its like CRT actually want to have a small percentage of unlicensed boats about. I guess it is useful for certain publicity purposes.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 23, 2019 17:36:29 GMT
What could be simpler than picking out any unlicensed or unregistered boats cropping up in the Data Checkers info and pursuing the owners for any unpaid fees or charges ? Which is exactly what they are doing, and what you are whinging about! Alright then, . . let's have some instances of C&RT doing that ! Let me know when you're tired of looking, . . C&RT have never prosecuted any boater for Licence/Registration evasion, or sought to recover unpaid fees and/or charges under the appropriate legislation since they came into existence in 2012.
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