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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:52:40 GMT
I wonder if it's worth adding a caveat under the 'Float charge' section pointing out that some chargers set Float at an undesirably low voltage? No I do not think so, but I would also suggest that that section should not lump it in as part of the natural charging cycle. But now we come back to voltage. If the charger sets float at 13.6V as many do then it IS the third stage of the charging cycle.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:51:03 GMT
Probably both by the sound of it! If the engine was spinning reasonably fast and putting the lights on took it down to 13v or less, the alternator is duff (presuming belts are Ok, wiring is good). I'd fix this first, then see how the battery fares. Yup. Lights dimming with a dynamo on tickover is pretty normal. Doing the same with an alternator spinning reasonably fast suggests it's faulty. Checked the alternator belt?
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:45:43 GMT
I wonder if it's worth adding a caveat under the 'Float charge' section pointing out that some chargers set Float at an undesirably low voltage?
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:43:44 GMT
I think it boils down to whether you think that "fully charged" means all the lead sulphate converted to lead and acid, or just that which is easy to convert! If the absorption voltage is held to "fully charged", then go to float, I think that is preferable to going to float before quite fully charged. In fact the latter seems to be a common source of problems. I agree. To convert all of the lead sulphate can take hours and hours at quite a high voltage. By the time you've succeeded you've also increased plate corrosion.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:32:54 GMT
Secondly, and more fundamentally, you state that 13.6V won't fully charge a 12V lead acid battery. You are wrong. It will. Tony It won't according to the manufacturers definition of a full charge, or that of The Battery FAQ. Secondly, and more 13.6V will take a long time to finish the charge and it won't get rid of any sulphation but it will finally get the battery approaching 100%. Tony There's the rub, 'approaching 100%' is not a full charge if it leaves more sulphate on the plates. I try to get round this by stating 'a proper full charge' as that meeting the manufacturers requirements. On reflection, I'm not sure that I understand what point you are making with reference to the OP. I'll happily edit it if I can be shown an error.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:29:14 GMT
Secondly, and more fundamentally, you state that 13.6V won't fully charge a 12V lead acid battery. You are wrong. It will. Tony It won't according to the manufacturers definition of a full charge, or that of The Battery FAQ. Secondly, and more 13.6V will take a long time to finish the charge and it won't get rid of any sulphation but it will finally get the battery approaching 100%. Tony There's the rub, 'approaching 100%' is not a full charge if it leaves more sulphate on the plates. I try to get round this by stating 'a proper full charge' as that meeting the manufacturers requirements. What's a full charge? 100% is unobtainable, all one can ever achieve is 'approaching full charge' as stated in the OP.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:07:04 GMT
As an aside, note that any engine bay cabling should ideally be tri-rated. Someone mentioned that recently, first I'd heard of it. Where does it actually say that? RCD documentation. Nothing to do with BSS and therefore not 'required' per se.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:02:17 GMT
Oh, and heed the instructions. The wires MUST go directly to the relevant battery posts.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:01:11 GMT
The wires have to go directly to the battery terminals. One to domestic -ve terminal, one to domestic +ve terminal, and one (optionally) to engine battery +ve terminal. The wires are not supplied I think, don't have to be thick, I think the manual gives suggestions, I'll check in a minute. Fuses need to be installed near the battery +ve terminals, they are included. edit - wires 1mm^2 minimum. The wires carry virtually zero current (just a few milliamps) and the suggestion for minimum size is really just so that they're physically strong enough. As an aside, note that any engine bay cabling should ideally be tri-rated. The rest of the wiring probably won't be but it doesn't hurt to use the 'correct' stuff for new wiring.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 10:56:06 GMT
Yes it was. It's a pity folk don't think it was nice for me to try to correct a few minor mistakes. I guess that if you are the OP you can say what you like and not expect to have it corrected. Or was that CWDF? FWIW I appreciate your inputs to these type of threads and don't think that the OP should expect not to have errors corrected. I do sometimes think you can get bogged down in trying to get everything technically correct (according to you) rather than focusing on what the OP was trying to achieve. This is a minor criticism and I could criticise other contributors as well so please don't take offense. Currently I only post on these threads to try to help the discussion move on rather than one of 'ignorance, mischief or boredom', I want to get a better understanding of the basics so that when I come to start making specific questions I can make them fairly specific/detailed rather than 'why have my batteries died again'. My areas of expertise can be summed up as; - Human Factors expert in control center design and operation - Independent technical expert during Union/Management negotiations - Writer of technical/operational/emergency manuals I hope you and others will accept my inputs as potentially helpful (even if they come from someone who is currently fairly ignorant of the technical details). I think the input from someone who is used to writing manuals would be most welcome 😀 I recall a pair of Technics headphones which came with the warning "Excessive turning of the volume control can be damaging to the earholes". It made me laugh, but it got the message across.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 10:50:26 GMT
... regarding this OP my only comment was that float charge isn't really a charging state, it's a maintenance state. The OP text implies that float is necessary to bring a battery to a fully charged state, I'd say this is misleading and counter-productive, especially as we often advocate those charging from a genny not to have a float stage at all. And I disagree. Firstly, the OP doesn't imply that Float is necessary, in fact the OP goes to some lengths to explain why Float is undesirable for most boaters. Secondly, and more fundamentally, you state that 13.6V won't fully charge a 12V lead acid battery. You are wrong. It will. 13.6V will take a long time to finish the charge and it won't get rid of any sulphation but it will finally get the battery approaching 100%. Do we want it to? No, and that is fundamentally what the OP is all about - avoiding Float. Tony
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Post by tonyqj on Oct 31, 2016 22:18:53 GMT
I thought it was black magic!!!!! or it is in my black batteries Mine are silver ...... does that mean mine are more efficient ? Yes, the electric can slide over shiny finishes much more betterrer.
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Post by tonyqj on Oct 31, 2016 22:06:23 GMT
I have some stainless steel glands nut on top to tighten the gland 3 screws to hold it down lovely things sicaflex underneath no leaks and been on years Sounds like the perfect way to do it.
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Post by tonyqj on Oct 31, 2016 22:01:59 GMT
The current current can only be current currently.
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Post by tonyqj on Oct 31, 2016 21:45:26 GMT
Simplest is to say "due to inefficiencies". That's more than enough for the average boater. Fine by me! I'm not sure what you said about it pre-edit. I'm a bit confused because there may have been some thread crossover between yours and tonyb's with all the debating. His OP says that a symptom of charge efficiency is that the battery gets warm, not sure if yours did originally? All mine says is that due to charge inefficiencies (it originally said Peukert but that offended Pete's sensibilities) you have to put more back in than you took out by a factor of 10 to 20%. Yes, it was TonyB's that mentioned heating.
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