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Post by Telemachus on Apr 22, 2024 9:32:02 GMT
Sounds like a fun event Telemachus ? Did your club finish 4th ? 😁 Rog Yes. Out of 5 remember. Mostly this was because our intermediate pilot had a bad dose of the shits on Friday night following a takeaway curry, and couldn’t participate. And we only had the one day, Sunday it was raining and unflyable.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 22, 2024 9:27:05 GMT
Sorry I misread your previous post where you mentioned penning out at Tarleton - I read half an hour after the ebb which I took that to mean 30 mins after the start of the ebb ie 30 mins after high tide. I have not been there, so I have no idea how much water is in the river at different states of tide.
But I see that is not what you said, sorry! An hour after half ebb - so with the times I mentioned that would be 14:00 departure to arrive at 19:30. This certainly makes it more feasible. I suppose one question that neither of us know, is how much depth there is around low water in 2024 - your experience is from a long time ago and you can bet that no dredging has been done recently, so it will depend on how much natural scouring takes place I suppose. Also around low water, how easy is it for an amateur pleasure boater to remain in deep enough water in the middle of large expanses of mud flats with fairly poor visual references?
In post < thunderboat.boards.net/post/395943/thread > I said " I'll deal with the other points you've raised after we've got your misconceptions about times for penning out at Tarleton straightened out.". It appears from the post quoted above that your misconceptions are far from straightened out, and you've yet to grasp the basic essentials of how to work round tides and tide times in rivers and estuaries. C&RT too, have little to no understanding of the basic principles and practices that really must not be deviated from or ignored. Lack of the necessary sound background knowledge, and being neither willing nor able to adapt to or make the best use of whatever circumstances and conditions prevail on the day is not a formula for the successful planning of safe and efficient routine tidal passage making. The two questions you ask above, and the answers to them, aren't applicable to planning Tarleton to Preston passages. The last couple of miles of the Douglas (Astland/Asland), on the last of the Ebb or around local LW, is no place for canal pleasure craft crewed by amateur part timers unfamiliar with tidal estuaries to be messing about. On mean tides or bigger, there's usually a fairly big fast moving tidal bore in the Ribble, . . comparable with the Trent Aegre from around Owston Ferry and on up to Gainsborough. There are also numerous sandbanks and shoals, many of which dry out at local LW, extending a good mile or more up the Douglas from Astland Light. The last few hundred yards of the Douglas, including the scoured out deepwater channel that runs close to the training wall, is almost like a mirror image of the Trent in the area of South Trent, North Trent, and Apex Lights. The question of dredging doesn't arise. The deepwater channel in the Ribble was dredged regularly when shipping was still using Preston Docks, . . but the lower reaches of the Douglas, all the way down to Astland Light, were always left to the process of natural scouring, in the same way the Trent is left to scour out the deepwater channel itself from Cliff End, past Middle Sand, to Apex Light. The only safe, practical, and efficient option for shallow draught pleasure craft making the Tarleton to Preston passage is to pen out into the river Douglas as soon as possible after arriving at Tarleton. This can be done at any time during the period of anything up to 16 hours out of every whole tidal day* during which there is sufficient depth of water in the lock tail and over the outer cill for them. Once in the river, they can, and should, move the short distance downriver to the boatyard, and wait on the boatyard floating stages in the river Douglas for the Flood (tide) that's going to take them up the Ribble and into Savick Brook. Making use of a few minutes out of those many hours of opportunity, by penning out into the river as soon as possible after arrival at Tarleton means, in effect, that you don't 'use up' any of one tide at all. It's the next tide - one tide only - that's taken up with the Tarleton to Preston passage. Unlike the ridiculous C&RT booking/scheduling arrangements that waste time, and one whole tide, by making you wait in the canal at Tarleton for the remainder of the day on which you arrive there, . . if you pen out into river as soon after arriving at Tarleton as you possibly can, then you're all set to catch the next day's tide - one tide only - up the Ribble to Preston, . . at exactly the right time. Catching the Flood running up to Preston at exactly the right time - which is NOT possible if you follow C&RT's Mickey Mouse and potentially quite risky scheduling for penning out into the river at Tarleton - means that you'll have the Flood under you all the way upriver from Astland Light, and you'll be turning into the Savick Brook's Ribble outfall on a rising tide, which rules out any possibility of having to divert to Preston Docks Marina, and having to wait, . . and pay, . . overnight in there for the next day's first tide to get you the mile and a bit back down river and into the so-called 'Ribble Link'. * Average duration 24 hrs 51 mins. Ok so I think what you are saying is that instead of waiting for the flood to lock onto the Douglas, you lock onto it earlier, during the lengthy period when there is enough water to do so. You then can cruise down to the boatyard without having to punch the flood. From the boatyard, you still have to wait for the flood but of course it is earlier. You still have to punch the flood to Astland lamp, but it is obviously a shorter distance. So the saving comprises 2 elements, one being the earlier flood at the boatyard and the other being the shorter distance to punch the flood to Astland. With the flood being fairly short lived I guess it could well be that the flood has expired before you get to Astland lamp. But then that last point applies even more to departing Tarleton on the flood. So although it isn’t going to make a huge difference, even an hour earlier arrival at Savick is going to virtually eliminate the possibility of having to divert to Preston, and / or increase the number of days when the transit is feasible. The fly in the ointment being that there has to be space and permission to tie up at the boatyard. I doubt that would be free and the boatyard might not be prepared to guarantee space months in advance. I’m not sure how many boats typically make the transit, but narrowboats take up a lot of space even when rafted.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 22, 2024 8:09:58 GMT
A league Telemachus ... is that points for distance achieved by each club member, totalled over a number of 'matches / flights ? I didn't know there were glider club leagues. Rog It’s a low-key friendly competition amongst the 5 Scottish clubs over a weekend, twice a year. Hosted by the 4 main clubs in turn. 3 classes of pilots entering, novice, intermediate, pundit. So 3 pilots from each club. Each of the 2:days (weather permitting) a task is set (a route via a start gate and a few turning points, back to the host airfield). You get distance points, and speed points if you complete the task. BBQ on the Saturday night. I managed a meagre 74km but then it was a shit day!
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 21, 2024 22:52:40 GMT
Flew in the Scottish inter club league from Portmoak. My ASH25 is still out of action awaiting a new rudder from the manufacturer in Germany, so I was flying the Ventus. 16.6 metres instead of 25 metres. Still, it is a much more agile glider. But it was a shit day with a shit sky - a day I would never normally have bother to fly cross country. I did manage about 80km but then the ground came up to meet me and I ended up in a field somewhere the other side of Lake of Menteith*. Nice field and very friendly farmer and his wife, but still it was 1hr 15mins by road from Portmoak, which made for a rather long retrieve. *The only lake in Scotland
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 19, 2024 8:18:24 GMT
If you look at the CRT schedule - days available to be booked per month - it is quite limited. Maybe two groups of 3 days per month each way. This is because these days are the only days with sufficiently big tides to do the trip in one tide - ie leaving Tarlton as soon as there is enough water in the Douglas, and getting to the 1/2 tide lock on the Savick Brook in time for there still to be enough water. Currently there is no availability in May, very little in June and even less in July. So the passage is well booked up well in advance. If for some reason we miss our slot, it seems likely that the transit would be scuppered for this year. ________________________________________________________________________________
So by means of the Dunkley strategy, many more days could be made available and once you go for the 2-tides solution, it makes it feasible to have opposite direction traffic at the same time. ________________________________________________________________________________
So there is merit in his proposal, but for the time being CRT are taking the easy route of keeping it simple and having fairly few days when the transit can be made, perhaps to avoid the situation of having CRT people attending to pass just one or two boats.
There was NOT, and never has been, any suggestion from me to make the Tarleton to Preston passage over two tides rather than one. That's a misconception, and it comes from an incorrect presumption, on your part. The incorrect presumption being that penning out into the river at Tarleton is only possible for a very short time during the course of only one of the two daily tide cycles. The reality is that it IS possible, and practical, for shallow draught pleasure craft to pen out into the river Douglas at Tarleton at any time during the approximate total of 16 hours out of every whole tidal day* during which there is sufficient depth of water in the lock tail and over the outer cill for shallow draught pleasure craft. Making use of a few minutes out of that 16 hours of daily opportunity, penning out into the river as soon as possible after arrival at Tarleton means, in effect, that you don't 'use up' any of one tide at all. It's the next tide - one tide only - that's taken up with the Tarleton to Preston passage. Unlike the ridiculous C&RT booking/scheduling arrangements that waste time, and one whole tide, by making you wait in the canal at Tarleton for the remainder of the day on which you arrive there, . . if you pen out into river as soon after arriving at Tarleton as you possibly can, then you're all set to catch the next day's tide - one tide only - up the Ribble to Preston, . . at exactly the right time. Catching the Flood running up to Preston at exactly the right time - which is NOT possible if you follow C&RT's Mickey Mouse scheduling for penning out into the river at Tarleton - means that you'll have the Flood under you all the way upriver from Astland Light, and you'll be turning into the Savick Brook's Ribble outfall on a rising tide, which rules out any possibility of having to divert to Preston Docks Marina, and having to wait, . . and pay, . . overnight in there for the next day's first tide to get you the mile and a bit back down river and into the so-called 'Ribble Link'. * Average duration 24 hrs 51 mins. I’ve addressed this misunderstanding in the relevant thread.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 21:58:19 GMT
So, keeping things simple and as a worked example, let’s say high tide at Tarlton is 08:00 and low tide is 18:00 and next high is 20:30. So you would propose leaving Tarlton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30 or so. I’m sure this would be feasible and economical but it makes for a very long duration passage, and whilst feasible with the tide times given I think there would be plenty of days when tide times were different, when the passage couldn’t be completed in daylight especially if you include completing the rest of the “link” up to the Lanky. Stopping overnight at the boatyard would be a possibility but again this adds to the duration considerably, and most canal boaters prefer being on a canal rather than overnighting on a tidal river (not that there is anything particularly wrong with overnighting on a tidal river, it’s just something leisure narrowboaters aren’t used to. And I can’t really imagine that the boatyard owner would be offering this service for free! So whilst there certainly are alternative strategies, they aren’t without their own problems. Your proposal would certainly increase the number of days when the transit was possible, but then we also have to look at the demand and the cost of manning and managing the transits. No, . . I certainly would NOT propose leaving Tarleton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30. Your estimate of Flood and Ebb duration at Tarleton is about right for basis arbitrary working figures, without reckoning in and allowing for the effects of wind direction and strength, and atmospheric pressure. Your simple worked example, however, with HW at Tarleton and Preston at 0800 hrs, starts with a major incorrect presumption about departure time, and then continues in the same vein about what happens next. Penning out into the river at Tarleton, at or shortly after local HW is absolutely NOT what you should be doing if bound for Preston. The Ebb at Tarleton runs down for around 10 hours. In anything apart from exceptional weather and tides there's normally enough depth over the outer cill for shallow draught pleasure craft to pen out into the river at Tarleton for a total of around 8 hours, twice every day -- local HW minus 2 hours to local HW plus 6 hours. Any boats bound for Preston should be making good use of ALL of the daylight hours out of those 16 hours out of every day, . . and penning out into the river as soon as possible after arriving at Tarleton - NOT farting about, wasting time and oportunities, waiting for the 'booked in' time they've been given by some office chair polishing goon at C&RT. Once they're out in the river, depending on the time of day and the time of the next Low Water/Flood in the Ribble, they can then make the choice to either carry on up to Preston with the next Flood on that day, or wait overnight at the nearby boatyard for the next day's tide. I'll deal with the other points you've raised after we've got your misconceptions about times for penning out at Tarleton straightened out. Sorry I misread your previous post where you mentioned penning out at Tarleton - I read half an hour after the ebb which I took that to mean 30 mins after the start of the ebb ie 30 mins after high tide. I have not been there, so I have no idea how much water is in the river at different states of tide.
But I see that is not what you said, sorry! An hour after half ebb - so with the times I mentioned that would be 14:00 departure to arrive at 19:30. This certainly makes it more feasible. I suppose one question that neither of us know, is how much depth there is around low water in 2024 - your experience is from a long time ago and you can bet that no dredging has been done recently, so it will depend on how much natural scouring takes place I suppose. Also around low water, how easy is it for an amateur pleasure boater to remain in deep enough water in the middle of large expanses of mud flats with fairly poor visual references?
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 20:21:47 GMT
Thank you Telemachus Out of interest I read your discussion with Dunk (you quoted him and responded) about a possible alternate route to the Lancaster Canal. I didn't comment for obvious reasons. It appeared utter nonsense to me ... possible but why would anyone choose to do that or benefit from that choice ? I will however be very interested to read the report of your trip should you care to post. Rog If you look at the CRT schedule - days available to be booked per month - it is quite limited. Maybe two groups of 3 days per month each way. This is because these days are the only days with sufficiently big tides to do the trip in one tide - ie leaving Tarlton as soon as there is enough water in the Douglas, and getting to the 1/2 tide lock on the Savick Brook in time for there still to be enough water. Currently there is no availability in May, very little in June and even less in July. So the passage is well booked up well in advance. If for some reason we miss our slot, it seems likely that the transit would be scuppered for this year. So by means of the Dunkley strategy, many more days could be made available and once you go for the 2-tides solution, it makes it feasible to have opposite direction traffic at the same time. So there is merit in his proposal, but for the time being CRT are taking the easy route of keeping it simple and having fairly few days when the transit can be made, perhaps to avoid the situation of having CRT people attending to pass just one or two boats.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 19:13:56 GMT
Just for clarity I'm asking what your preference is approaching wide locks ... to work them alone or for another boat to join you ? We've met loads of lovely folks sharing locks, but I'd still rather do them alone cos we've also met fussy, grumpy, wittering, bad tempered folks. Solo is my preference. Rog Another boat to join us. As fi says, if it transpires you don’t like them, you can decide to stop for a cup of tea /strange engine problem etc. Or just sink their boat and carry on.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 18:49:37 GMT
In other news, Nicola Sturgeon’s husband Peter Murrel was arrested again today and has now been charged with embezzlement. How very sad. NOT! Hopefully the Crankie will be next.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 18:45:50 GMT
We prefer to share, especially going up hill because you don’t have to worry about the boat moving around in the lock too much. Preferably with a hire boat because they are happy on holiday, not Mr and Mrs grumpy-private-owner who seem to hate having a boat. It can be a bit frustrating when the other boat’s driver isn’t very good, in which case be the second boat to enter!
But it is very satisfying when you get someone who knows what they are doing. Exit the lock together, maybe move apart slightly, then come together as you enter the next lock simultaneously. Of course one could tie the boats together, but that reduces the fun. Even better if the people coming way know what to do - one pair of boats parts to let the other (opposite direction) one pass between. This can be tricky if there are 2 boats going each way though, as there may not be enough deep water width. That is the way to do it though.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 13:49:12 GMT
Reading this, I reckon so. I wonder if the likes of Jim will now accept that it was a really stupid idea, that should never have gone further than the wet dreams of a huddle of large government totalitarians. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-68838440The likes of me don't have a problem with it, been to Wales a few times since it came in, just stuck to 2nd gear where it applies. What's the rush? Well, the rush is that life is short and you only have one. I’d prefer not to spend a good chunk of it doing 20 along a road that was previously 40, unless there is a good reason for the 20 limit. And time is money for commercial ops, so time wasted doing 20 reduces the wealth of the nation. Anyway, it’s kind of crazy that the discriminator is street lamps. So on well-lit roads you can only do 20, on unlit roads you can do 60. Where is the sense in that?
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 13:43:14 GMT
Apr 18, 2024 11:51:25 GMT 1 Telemachus said: Well I for one would be interested to hear your proposal. Presumably it involves sitting out low water in the Ribble estuary. I have no idea whether there is sufficient depth to do that (probably depends on the type of tide) but surely, even though there would be less fuel consumed, it would take longer bobbing about waiting for the tide to come in? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Not a proposal, . . but a variation on what we used to do running light back to Preston Docks from Tarleton back in the early 1960's on the trial runs for the prospective bagged chemicals traffic for ICI at Anderton. Back then, we would pen out of Tarleton about an hour after half Ebb, then a very steady run down the Douglas (the 'Asland', as some of the older local ex-boatmen called it) to the river's end, hang around for an hour or so in the vicinity of Five Mile Perch/Astland Light, then run up to Preston Docks on the first of the Flood. Now, with only pleasure craft going up to Preston from Tarleton, it would be more convenient, and make an overnight wait for the next Flood posible, if so desired, . . to wait on the floating landing stages at the boatyard that's about a mile downriver from Tarleton. It must be around two years now since I spoke with the boatyard about doing this. They were quite happy about making such an arrangement, . . and appeared somewhat surprised that nobody had asked about it before. I had a look at the tide times for Preston dock, quite surprised that there is such a big difference between ebb duration and flood duration despite it not being very far inland. As in about 2.5 hrs for the flood and 10 hrs for the ebb. But the Astland Lamp is about 1/2 way between Preston and the sea, so the tidal asymmetry is going to be less, maybe 4.5 hrs and 8 hrs at a complete guess. But up at Tarlton the tide times are more likely to be similar to Preston I’d have thought. So, keeping things simple and as a worked example, let’s say high tide at Tarlton is 08:00 and low tide is 18:00 and next high is 20:30. So you would propose leaving Tarlton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30 or so. I’m sure this would be feasible and economical but it makes for a very long duration passage, and whilst feasible with the tide times given I think there would be plenty of days when tide times were different, when the passage couldn’t be completed in daylight especially if you include completing the rest of the “link” up to the Lanky. Stopping overnight at the boatyard would be a possibility but again this adds to the duration considerably, and most canal boaters prefer being on a canal rather than overnighting on a tidal river (not that there is anything particularly wrong with overnighting on a tidal river, it’s just something leisure narrowboaters aren’t used to. And I can’t really imagine that the boatyard owner would be offering this service for free! So whilst there certainly are alternative strategies, they aren’t without their own problems. Your proposal would certainly increase the number of days when the transit was possible, but then we also have to look at the demand and the cost of manning and managing the transits. The transit is for leisure purposes, not commercial purposes, and so it doesn’t particularly matter if transit days are limited, provided the overall number of boats wanting to make the transit can be accommodated within a week or two of desired time. I suspect that if CRT had two alternative booking options, one for a transit on one tide as is current practice, and another one for days when the tides made this impossible but a 2-tide transit as per your proposal was possible but would take 11 hrs or so just to reach the Savick brook sea lock, nearly everyone would opt for the first option and the second option would be very under-subscribed.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 11:01:37 GMT
In other countries, people have no desire to get drunk and make idiots of themselves on the streets. It's a cultural thing. Yes it certainly is. The need is therefore to tackle the culture of drunkenness, not to outlaw alcohol altogether. And bearing in mind you can make alcohol in you kitchen, whereas you can't make tobacco, a ban on importing cigarettes would be feasible whereas a ban on the consumption of alcohol could never work (see USA prohibition for a clue!).
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 10:56:03 GMT
No I don't think it would be feasible to ban all smoking completely, but the idea of preventing (attempting to prevent) young people starting down a path of dangerous addiction, seems a good compromise. Would you object to an identical new law for alcohol? Alcohol misuse is responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for a great deal of anti social behaviour. Unlike smoking, which isn't, other than being a minor irritation. Obviously such a new law for alcohol wouldn't affect me directly. But as I explained earlier, there is a safe level of alcohol consumption whereas there is no safe level of cigarette smoking. I would agree that alcohol misuse is problematic, but the solution would be to properly apply the existing laws such as it being a licensing offence to serve someone alcohol who is drunk, and being drunk and disorderly in a public place. In this country we seem to tolerate seeing druken hordes causing mayhem on the streets of a Saturday night. In other countries, public displays of drunkeness are not tolerated by the cops.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 10:51:25 GMT
As far as I know the locks at each end are locked, so regardless of whether CRT's strategy can be improved or not (I think it is quite likely it could be!) unfortunately we are stuck with following their schedule. Generally people operating locks do so to suit their own convenience rather than for any particularly good navigational reason - when we wanted to transit from Salter's Lode to Denver along the short tidal section last year, we were told we couldn't exit on the rising tide, which would have given a favourable current and much easier turn up the river, we had to wait for the tide to start going out enough to give adequate air draft and then make a not-very-easy full throttle turn into the current and push against it til we got to Denver - which fortunately is not very far. The reason apparently was in case they couldn't close the gate, it would allow more "fixing time" before the level exceeded the gates at the other end. Although I think at that state of tide, this would never have happened so it was just some "health and safety" bs that someone had thought up, without considering that most of the time (at most tides) it wasn't an issue. But rules was rules, apparently. The half-tide gate in Savick Brook, and the bottom gates of lock No.8 in Savick Brook are a separate matter. The lock tail and outer cill at Tarleton almost dry out at local Low Water, but the lock keepers at Tarleton will pen you in to or out of the Douglas as soon as the Flood has made enough depth to float you over the outer cill and the muck in the lock tail, . . or at any other time whilst there's sufficient depth for your boat over the outer cill and in the lock tail. Once you're in the river there, you're free to follow any passage schedule you want to. At the Preston end of the trip, there's a floating stage you can tie up to near the A583 road bridge over Savick Brook if you're late on the tide, or if it's a poor tide that doesn't make prediction, and the Ebb has run down too far to have enough depth to get up as far as Lock No. 8. But, . . penning out at Tarleton early on the Flood is the crackpot C&RT way of doing things, . . and means your going to be stemming the Flood pretty well all the way down the Douglas to where it meets and runs into the Ribble at Five Mile Perch - Astland Light - where you'll arrive at somewhere near to local High Water, . . just in time for the first of the Ebb in the Ribble, . . and then you'll be stemming that all the way up to the Savick Brook's Ribble outfall, . . and you'll continue stemming the Ebb running back down Savick Brook's narrowest shallowest part up as far as lock No. 8., the first lock on what actually IS the 'Ribble Link', . . about four miles of non-tidal canalised drainage ditch, upon which C&RT operate a strict booked in advance, very limited numbers, one-way working only on alternate days routine. All in all, . . a masterly piece of tidal passage planning by C&RT. The return trip from Preston back to Tarleton is equally well planned, . . adverse tides throughout the trip, . . and falling when you least want them to be. There is in fact a much preferable, easier, safer, fuel saving alternative to the ridiculous amateurish C&RT scheduling (for Tarleton - Preston), which always means being left with no choice other than to leave Tarleton for Preston as early on the Flood as you can. The alternative running schedule - the sensible, professional way to work round tide times - guarantees getting you to and into Savick Brook shortly before local HW, with no possibility of needing to sit out the next tide in Preston Marina (formerly Preston Docks). It also saves you having to stem the Ebb pretty well all the way up from Five Mile Perch/Astland Light. The Flood pushes you all the way up the Ribble, and you've a rising tide for the anything but straightforward turn off the river into Savick Brook. There's a much better alternative to the C&RT nonsense for scheduling/planning the Preston - Tarleton return trip too. Well I for one would be interested to hear your proposal. Presumably it involves sitting out low water in the Ribble estuary. I have no idea whether there is sufficient depth to do that (probably depends on the type of tide) but surely, even though there would be less fuel consumed, it would take longer bobbing about waiting for the tide to come in?
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