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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 15:46:13 GMT
"Europe has done little for the working man" Oh agreed, apart from the minimum wage, the working time directive, holiday entitlement, maternity leave and H&S to name a few. Not all of your list came from the EU,what price the working time directive now John when we can't support our Steel Industry while Germany can and does.A policy of Vertical Integration I believe they call it in Germany. Surely if one EU country opts to support its steel industry and another one does not it's hardly the fault of the EU, it's the fault of that countrie's government??
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Post by john_holden on Apr 3, 2016 15:53:41 GMT
"Europe has done little for the working man" Oh agreed, apart from the minimum wage, the working time directive, holiday entitlement, maternity leave and H&S to name a few. Not all of your list came from the EU,what price the working time directive now John when we can't support our Steel Industry while Germany can and does.A policy of Vertical Integration I believe they call it in Germany. What has the working time directive got to do with our government blocking EU plans to increase tariffs on Chinese steel?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 16:08:23 GMT
Not all of your list came from the EU,what price the working time directive now John when we can't support our Steel Industry while Germany can and does.A policy of Vertical Integration I believe they call it in Germany. Surely if one EU country opts to support its steel industry and another one does not it's hardly the fault of the EU, it's the fault of that countrie's government?? It depends what you mean by support John? encouraging Industry to buy British or state subsidy? The latter I believe isn't permitted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 16:11:31 GMT
Not all of your list came from the EU,what price the working time directive now John when we can't support our Steel Industry while Germany can and does.A policy of Vertical Integration I believe they call it in Germany. What has the working time directive got to do with our government blocking EU plans to increase tariffs on Chinese steel? It has got nothing to do with it john,I was only pointing out the impotence of all your so called European Benefits list when it comes to jobs and bread on the table.
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Post by macwolfelee on Apr 3, 2016 16:41:13 GMT
I can't understand why as an island we can't secure our borders,what about the Australian model? I think that in the end Capitalism requires a pool of Labour any colour or race,which will travel wherever the work is and I worry about the implications of that for our own indigenous working man,who is being beggared in the workplace as pay and conditions are being eroded.It remains the same old power and money in the same old hands and membership of the EU has done nothing to change that. I believe this is the greatest country on earth and I worry when I hear people buy into the idea of we can't survive outside Europe,Europe has done little for the working man What country exactly do you believe to be the greatest on earth? England? The UK? Don't you think that the citizens of other countries think the same about their countries? You can't all be right. Therein lies the problem - nationalism is an old-fashioned concept in this globalised world. Personally I think that the working man (and woman) of Spain or even China deserves my concern and support just as much as the indigenous variety (or did you mean indigent -OK, OK, just joking!).
Belief that one's own country is the greatest is just the same as believing that one's own religion is the one true faith.
I'm afraid that, as was said earlier, that the rise of previously poor nations inevitably means that we, the rich, will become poorer. Isn't that fair?
There, I've managed to get politics and religion into the same post, with a dose of economics too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 16:52:08 GMT
Surely if one EU country opts to support its steel industry and another one does not it's hardly the fault of the EU, it's the fault of that countrie's government?? It depends what you mean by support John? encouraging Industry to buy British or state subsidy? The latter I believe isn't permitted But my point was you seemed to be suggesting that the German government is in some way unilaterally supporting its steel industry despite it technically being against EU rules and the U.K. Govt. has opted not to. If that is correct what I am suggesting is the fault lies with our govt. If Germany can ignore the rules why can't we? All that said I don't actually know that the German govt. are.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 16:53:37 GMT
I don't think many other countries have made the contribution that this one has,you talk about nationalism being an old fashioned concept, if Trump gets elected you will see America adopt an almost isolationist policy,America First so it may be not that outdated. This rise of poor nations is I believe a myth,the fact is Capitalism manufactures in these poor countries pays the worker a pittance so these workers can't afford to buy what they manufacture.The product is then shipped to richer countries who being already stripped of the manufacturing jobs and therefore the associated wages are given cheap credit to buy the product.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 17:03:56 GMT
It depends what you mean by support John? encouraging Industry to buy British or state subsidy? The latter I believe isn't permitted But my point was you seemed to be suggesting that the German government is in some way unilaterally supporting its steel industry despite it technically being against EU rules and the U.K. Govt. has opted not to. If that is correct what I am suggesting is the fault lies with our govt. If Germany can ignore the rules why can't we? All that said I don't actually know that the German govt. are. Well the fact is that Germany has a Steel Industry and we soon won't. Chinese Imports flooding the market and the cost of energy is the often quoted causes. I believe the German line is that they operate a policy of Vertical Integration which I understand means a buy German Policy to German Industry. Our government chooses not to follow that policy,why,I don't know. As an aside why is Britain always a seller of cornerstone industries,names such as Jaguar,Cadbury,Landrover? In Germany this is impossible to do with VW or BMW or even in France with some of their household names. Why isn't this being raised by the Labour Party?
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Post by macwolfelee on Apr 3, 2016 17:12:50 GMT
I don't think many other countries have made the contribution that this one has,you talk about nationalism being an old fashioned concept, if Trump gets elected you will see America adopt an almost isolationist policy,America First so it may be not that outdated. This rise of poor nations is I believe a myth,the fact is Capitalism manufactures in these poor countries pays the worker a pittance so these workers can't afford to buy what they manufacture.The product is then shipped to richer countries who being already stripped of the manufacturing jobs and therefore the associated wages are given cheap credit to buy the product. I'm afraid that you have a very short memory, or perhaps weren't born when Japan was regarded as the 'cheap copier' low wage economy taking all our jobs. They are now in the same boat as us, or even worse. And China is going the same way, with the rise of the middle classes there, now being overtaken by other countries like Vietnam. The rise of poor nations is by no means a myth - each becomes in its turn the industrial powerhouse until the people expect more, and another country takes over.
If you think that the rich west is immune to global economics, then tell that to the Saudis, who have been losing money hand over fist since the oil price crashed.
Protectionism is a natural reaction to external threats, but simply will not work.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 17:15:32 GMT
But my point was you seemed to be suggesting that the German government is in some way unilaterally supporting its steel industry despite it technically being against EU rules and the U.K. Govt. has opted not to. If that is correct what I am suggesting is the fault lies with our govt. If Germany can ignore the rules why can't we? All that said I don't actually know that the German govt. are. Well the fact is that Germany has a Steel Industry and we soon won't. Chinese Imports flooding the market and the cost of energy is the often quoted causes. I believe the German line is that they operate a policy of Vertical Integration which I understand means a buy German Policy to German Industry. Our government chooses not to follow that policy,why,I don't know. As an aside why is Britain always a seller of cornerstone industries,names such as Jaguar,Cadbury,Landrover? In Germany this is impossible to do with VW or BMW or even in France with some of their household names. Why isn't this being raised by the Labour Party? Then this confirms what I was saying. Some countries seem willing to ignore the EU and we choose not to. It's not our membership of the EU that is the problem if correct but rather our almost slavish following of the rules. there was a good argument put forward the other day by a political pundit for such an approach in that it takes so long for any penalties to be imposed that by the time they have been the industry concerned has recovered and considered worth paying.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 17:23:09 GMT
Your totally right what you say Martin,sometimes its slavish adherence to the rules. I believe its spun in the media to be the EU to blame.We seem to never have fought our corner in anything from Fish Quotas to now Steel.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 17:35:39 GMT
All my life, I have wanted brexit. I made a living from fishing in Cornwall when younger. What happened to that industry left a bitter taste for many. Now suddenly it's crunch time, and being totally honest, I've become a "floating voter". I can't make my mind up. Surprised to hear that your undecided,Cornwall was decimated both Fishing and Mining of Tin, what gives you pause for thought? It's the past. It happened, and won't change now. The choice has to be the future.
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Post by kris on Apr 3, 2016 17:43:55 GMT
I was undecided, but now I'm for out of the EU. The hardest thing to get my head round, is being on the same side as boris Johnson and Ian Duncan smith. That is of course if Europe lets us leave,look what happened to Ireland with the referendum over the Maastricht treaty. They made them have another go until they got the "right" result.
Regards kris
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Post by john_holden on Apr 3, 2016 17:52:41 GMT
What has the working time directive got to do with our government blocking EU plans to increase tariffs on Chinese steel? It has got nothing to do with it john,I was only pointing out the impotence of all your so called European Benefits list when it comes to jobs and bread on the table. No, it points out one of the failings of the EU that any one country can impose its will on all the other countries. Spin as hard as you want, you can't lay the blame for the EU not putting tariffs on Chinese imports of steel when it is us, and us alone, that vetoed that idea.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 17:59:26 GMT
I think the Guardian referred to us as the " ringleaders" but I take and agree with your point John
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