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Post by PaulG2 on Jun 6, 2016 16:39:06 GMT
I don't know about demonising but what controls if any are we to put on immigration. Its clear the present infrastructure can't cope and you have placed the blame for that where it belongs, but what if the Infrastructure could cope,would you be in favour of a city the size of Newcastle being created each year? effectively free movement. I would just say that if you believe we can restrict EU immigration AND continue trading with them on exactly the same basis (As some brexiters claim) then we are deluding ourselves. If we leave the EU we will have to have a very different trading relationship with it and one which risks stifling small to medium businesses that trade with the EU solely or primarily. The consequences of that is higher unemployment. The alternative will be to accept trading in the same or similar way will come with conditions, and guess what, I reckon one of those conditions will be to retain free movement within the EU. Free movement cuts both ways and I want my kids (and grandkids) to have the same opportunities I could have taken and be able to work anywhere they wish in the EU. I am after a period of hesitancy back to voting to remain, not because I don't think the EU is flawed, it clearly is but it is to me a decision made 'on balance' and as things stand we are in my opinion 'on balance' better in than out. New Quote: You and Ricco miss the point. Leaving will only change things regarding EU immigration IF the UK is able to close it's borders in the way envisaged by some. I don;t believe we will be able to for the reasons I have already outlined. So if voting is based on that than you are voting under a misapprehension IMHO. Respectfully, Martin, the big flaw in your argument is that it is not proven by history and the current state of world affairs. United States has very restrictive immigration policies and there isn't a country in the world that doesn't want a trade relationship with us, mostly on our terms. You seem to be assuming that EU business will somehow be vindictive after a Brexit and not want to trade with the UK. That idea is baseless because business cares only about the bottom line and the first thing business will do after a Brexit is to figure out how to remove trade barriers to work around the Brexit, and work with the newly independent UK. Business uses politics to their advantage, they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone's feelings of patriotism to a country or a Union. As to your kids, I'm sure a British engineer would still be welcome in Romania after Brexit, just as a Romanian engineer would be welcome in the UK. But those policies should be on a tit for tat basis, and that means controlling your own borders. If your kids are ditch diggers, they'll probably have to stay home to seek work, as will the much lower paid Romanian ditch diggers who are now driving down the wages of every working person in your country. With all due respect, you are basing you decision on the politics of fear, which is what the right wing and their corporate masters excel in. In your case, it is fear of loss. There is not a country or a company that would stop doing business with the UK because of a political decision made by its people. Sure, you would have to negotiate some new treaties, however, a prosperous UK is one giant consumer block and consumer blocks are the most powerful forces on earth, so you aren't going to have your trading partners shoving a lot of unwanted terms down your throats. Anyway, this is all academic. Your politicians are the same bought and paid-for whores as the EU politicians and they will approve trade deals that benefit only wealthy corporations whether you vote Brexit or not. The only hope with Brexit is that someday you may be able to show those political whores to the gallows and regain control of your government. It won't happen during our lifetime, but it has to start in order to happen Brexit is the first step.
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Post by Higgs on Jun 6, 2016 17:12:45 GMT
I think whats being intimated is that BREXIT may not lead to control of our own borders as any Trade Agreement with Europe may hinge on Free Movement of People
When I lived in Gibraltar, I couldn't legally work in Spain. The firm I worked for intended to move to Spain and I was offered a work visa. The Spanish wanted you, if you had something to offer them. Spain has something like 25% of its youth out of work. The only way a country can discriminate in favour of their own nationals is by not having open borders. The problem of discrimination doesn't arise in that case.
If we got Brexit, a trade agreement with open borders would be out of the question. Open borders is part of the fiasco Brexit is trying stop. However, if we do get Brexit, I can well imagine the numbers wishing to come to the UK will rise steeply for a couple of years throughout the transition. Those that are here by the EU will not be forced to leave.
I don't think those who are in favour of Remain really understand that trade is not what drives the motivation behind Brexit.
People in this present government do not mind spending over £4 billions of tax payers' money propping up the right to buy schemes. Public money, once again, being used to prop up the private sector. It is being used in buckets to prop up a trade motivated EU. If Remain want to preach trade, use private money. Show a bit of good faith, build houses and expand the NHS. Too fecking late, it would have made a world of difference. No money - Why? You know why, economics; profiteering, business and trade, bad governance - banking - big debt. So, what's magic about trade. Nothing!! All mouth, no trousers. Wind bags.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 18:08:18 GMT
I would just say that if you believe we can restrict EU immigration AND continue trading with them on exactly the same basis (As some brexiters claim) then we are deluding ourselves. If we leave the EU we will have to have a very different trading relationship with it and one which risks stifling small to medium businesses that trade with the EU solely or primarily. The consequences of that is higher unemployment. The alternative will be to accept trading in the same or similar way will come with conditions, and guess what, I reckon one of those conditions will be to retain free movement within the EU. Free movement cuts both ways and I want my kids (and grandkids) to have the same opportunities I could have taken and be able to work anywhere they wish in the EU. I am after a period of hesitancy back to voting to remain, not because I don't think the EU is flawed, it clearly is but it is to me a decision made 'on balance' and as things stand we are in my opinion 'on balance' better in than out. New Quote: You and Ricco miss the point. Leaving will only change things regarding EU immigration IF the UK is able to close it's borders in the way envisaged by some. I don;t believe we will be able to for the reasons I have already outlined. So if voting is based on that than you are voting under a misapprehension IMHO. Respectfully, Martin, the big flaw in your argument is that it is not proven by history and the current state of world affairs. United States has very restrictive immigration policies and there isn't a country in the world that doesn't want a trade relationship with us, mostly on our terms. You seem to be assuming that EU business will somehow be vindictive after a Brexit and not want to trade with the UK. That idea is baseless because business cares only about the bottom line and the first thing business will do after a Brexit is to figure out how to remove trade barriers to work around the Brexit, and work with the newly independent UK. Business uses politics to their advantage, they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone's feelings of patriotism to a country or a Union. As to your kids, I'm sure a British engineer would still be welcome in Romania after Brexit, just as a Romanian engineer would be welcome in the UK. But those policies should be on a tit for tat basis, and that means controlling your own borders. If your kids are ditch diggers, they'll probably have to stay home to seek work, as will the much lower paid Romanian ditch diggers who are now driving down the wages of every working person in your country. With all due respect, you are basing you decision on the politics of fear, which is what the right wing and their corporate masters excel in. In your case, it is fear of loss. There is not a country or a company that would stop doing business with the UK because of a political decision made by its people. Sure, you would have to negotiate some new treaties, however, a prosperous UK is one giant consumer block and consumer blocks are the most powerful forces on earth, so you aren't going to have your trading partners shoving a lot of unwanted terms down your throats. Anyway, this is all academic. Your politicians are the same bought and paid-for whores as the EU politicians and they will approve trade deals that benefit only wealthy corporations whether you vote Brexit or not. The only hope with Brexit is that someday you may be able to show those political whores to the gallows and regain control of your government. It won't happen during our lifetime, but it has to start in order to happen Brexit is the first step. The flaw in your argument is that you are not comparing like with like. the uk would be leaving a free trade environment and would have to re establish those agreements to get back to where we were. The US has built its trade up outside any similar arrangement. your assumption that we get back to where we were carries no guarantees and this is what troubles some business leaders here.
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Post by PaulG2 on Jun 6, 2016 18:45:39 GMT
your assumption that we get back to where we were carries no guarantees and this is what troubles some business leaders here. Why should you concern yourself for even one millisecond about what concerns "business leaders"? Do you think that they spend any time worrying about you? The only business leaders you should be worried are those who employ people in the UK. All the rest are out only out to profit from their relationship with you, at your expense.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 18:50:46 GMT
your assumption that we get back to where we were carries no guarantees and this is what troubles some business leaders here. Why should you concern yourself for even one millisecond about what concerns "business leaders"? Do you think that they spend any time worrying about you? The only business leaders you should be worried are those who employ people in the UK. All the rest are out only out to profit from their relationship with you, at your expense. You have answered your first question with the first sentence of your second paragraph. those are the very people who's views interest me and exactly who I am talking about.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 6, 2016 18:58:12 GMT
It's nice to see Mr "I could start a fight in an empty room" back!
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Post by PaulG2 on Jun 6, 2016 19:25:13 GMT
Why should you concern yourself for even one millisecond about what concerns "business leaders"? Do you think that they spend any time worrying about you? The only business leaders you should be worried are those who employ people in the UK. All the rest are out only out to profit from their relationship with you, at your expense. You have answered your first question with the first sentence of your second paragraph. those are the very people who's views interest me and exactly who I am talking about. Well then, when those business people that you care about need protection from heavily subsidized Chinese products, who do you think is going to be more answerable to them, an EU politician or a UK politician? Your trade problems, like ours, are with imports from China and the rest of Asia. The EU wants UK trade as much as the UK wants EU trade. You need to think about the elephant in the room, Asian imports, and quit worrying about what might happen with the EU. The USA has over 200 years more experience being a "United States of Whatever" than the EU has, and this country is seriously fucked up with the biggest wealth disparity that we have seen since the Gilded Age of the 1800's. That is the same road the EU will take you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 19:44:59 GMT
It's nice to see Mr "I could start a fight in an empty room" back! As I said I haven't been away, so you really shouldn't be so hard on whoever your comment is directed at. but as you raise the point are you only allowed to post here these days if you concur with the brexiters or think it's funny to take the piss out of somebody who is dyslexic? and what happened to if you attack the man you lose the argument, your so oft cited phrase on CWDF. Fucking idiot.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 6, 2016 19:57:03 GMT
It's nice to see Mr "I could start a fight in an empty room" back! As I said I haven't been away, so you really shouldn't be so hard on whoever your comment is directed at. but as you raise the point are you only allowed to post here these days if you concur with the brexiters or think it's funny to take the piss out of somebody who is dyslexic? and what happened to if you attack the man you lose the argument, your so oft cited phrase on CWDF. Fucking idiot. Wut? You can post whatever you want on here, regardless of which side of the fence you are on, and you can even be personally abusive right up to the point where your posts break the law. That's the whole point of Thunderboat. And as to your comment about "finding it funny to take the piss out of dyslexics", my girlfriend is dyslexic. My post was what is traditionally known as "humour", this page might help. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 20:12:26 GMT
As I said I haven't been away, so you really shouldn't be so hard on whoever your comment is directed at. but as you raise the point are you only allowed to post here these days if you concur with the brexiters or think it's funny to take the piss out of somebody who is dyslexic? and what happened to if you attack the man you lose the argument, your so oft cited phrase on CWDF. Fucking idiot. Wut? You can post whatever you want on here, regardless of which side of the fence you are on, and you can even be personally abusive right up to the point where your posts break the law. That's the whole point of Thunderboat. And as to your comment about "finding it funny to take the piss out of dyslexics", my girlfriend is dyslexic. My post was what is traditionally known as "humour", this page might help. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumourWhich doesn't explain your stupid comment about starting an argument in an empty room, but then I don't expect you to grasp that point. your last sentance is priceless. It's it bit like a racist saying 'but I have good friends who are black' as if it makes it acceptable. Or my best friend is gay so it's ok to be homophobic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 20:25:10 GMT
Wut? You can post whatever you want on here, regardless of which side of the fence you are on, and you can even be personally abusive right up to the point where your posts break the law. That's the whole point of Thunderboat. And as to your comment about "finding it funny to take the piss out of dyslexics", my girlfriend is dyslexic. My post was what is traditionally known as "humour", this page might help. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HumourWhich doesn't explain your stupid comment about starting an argument in an empty room, but then I don't expect you to grasp that point. your last sentance is priceless. It's it bit like a racist saying 'but I have good friends who are black' as if it makes it acceptable. Or my best friend is gay so it's ok to be homophobic. Please don't chastise him too much Martin or he shall plead an early start in the morning and say he is off to bed.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 6, 2016 20:34:13 GMT
Please don't chastise him too much Martin or he shall plead an early start in the morning and say he is off to bed. Not working this week, but I do have a very low boredom threshold so that may be why I cut you off early.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 20:38:47 GMT
Please don't chastise him too much Martin or he shall plead an early start in the morning and say he is off to bed. Not working this week, but I do have a very low boredom threshold so that may be why I cut you off early. Don't give me that bollocks,it was Sabcat who forced your withdrawal not me
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 6, 2016 20:47:59 GMT
Not working this week, but I do have a very low boredom threshold so that may be why I cut you off early. Don't give me that bollocks,it was Sabcat who forced your withdrawal not me Eh? If I say I'm logging off because I'm going to bed, it means I'm logging off because I'm going to bed. I often start work early so I often go to bed early. It doesn't mean that anybody, let alone the poor wooden-headed sap you mentioned, "forced my withdrawal". It just means I'm going to bed. Simples!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 20:53:20 GMT
Don't give me that bollocks,it was Sabcat who forced your withdrawal not me Eh? If I say I'm logging off because I'm going to bed, it means I'm logging off because I'm going to bed. I often start work early so I often go to bed early. It doesn't mean that anybody, let alone the poor wooden-headed sap you mentioned, "forced my withdrawal". It just means I'm going to bed. Simples! You don't need to revisit the posts in question if its too traumatic for you.Riots in France wasn't it ?
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