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Post by Graham on May 22, 2018 23:50:39 GMT
Oh dear Mr Norman you have just demonstrated that you have no knowledge of how or what I think I certainly do not agree with anything yo have posted on this subject and my values old fashioned interesting. Think I might have move with the times and attitude more than you have. Poor you, still bruised from your removal  I am thankful that I have no knowledge of how or what you think! (scary!) I only have knowledge of what you write on here. Yes perhaps you are a dreadlocked hipstaaaa and eat nothing but avocado toast, living your life on facebook/twatter/instragram (that I know to be true!) but I rather expected some more grounded thinking from you. Not sure why though! lol Spending my time on the internet we have been members here for the same amount of time less or plus 11 day and your posts are 4162 and mine 980 who lives on the forums, I spend my time helping people in real life not a pseudo world which you seem to inhabit either here or on CWF and any others that you manage to worm your way into and insist you should be the arbiter of whatever. You really need to get your facts right about the ceremonies that take place on the Sunday nearest the 11/11 each year. It is to remember and mourn all the dead, injured of the military no matter how or where or when and includes all conflicts up to and including Afghanistan etc |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 5:04:05 GMT
Is it just me or do others find the hysterical mawkish claptrap going on in the Grenfell “enquiry” rather distasteful? It goes without saying that the fire was a terrible tragedy - born out of incompetence, stupidity, greed, corruption etc. and each family affected has suffered catastrophically as a result. But surely an enquiry should be about what happened, why, and how to prevent it happening again? It shouldn’t be a vehicle for mawkish public wailing and sobbing that is so un-British. People should grieve in private, not using their grief to find their 15 minutes of fame. It just pisses me off that logic, analysis and “fixing the problem” are usurped by emotion - which will absolutely not fix the problem! We seem to be gripped by what my mother calls “Princess Diana Syndrome”. What on earth would we do if WW3 breaks out? No time to fight the enemy, only time for public wailing and sobbing because somebody died somewhere. We are doomed, I tell you! I’m left wondering whether you would show any emotion if you saw a video of those close to you screaming just before being burnt to death? Logic and emotion have their place but sometimes humans can’t help mixing both. We are not machines... |
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Post by naughtyfox on May 23, 2018 7:28:37 GMT
I thought many of the Grenfell residents were there illegally, and knew they were there on the hush-hush whilst paying rent to some slimy undesirables. Those flats should have gone to those who have been on the accommodation waiting list for all these years... and the cladding shouldn't have been skimped with in the first place. Everyone is guilty here. How many people living in tower blocks at this very moment who aren't actually the registered rent-payer? If boaters who are sympathetic to the plight of 'refugees' had actually put these folk up in their boats, they wouldn't have had to jump out of Grenfell Tower.
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Post by Telemachus on May 23, 2018 7:40:16 GMT
Is it just me or do others find the hysterical mawkish claptrap going on in the Grenfell “enquiry” rather distasteful? It goes without saying that the fire was a terrible tragedy - born out of incompetence, stupidity, greed, corruption etc. and each family affected has suffered catastrophically as a result. But surely an enquiry should be about what happened, why, and how to prevent it happening again? It shouldn’t be a vehicle for mawkish public wailing and sobbing that is so un-British. People should grieve in private, not using their grief to find their 15 minutes of fame. It just pisses me off that logic, analysis and “fixing the problem” are usurped by emotion - which will absolutely not fix the problem! We seem to be gripped by what my mother calls “Princess Diana Syndrome”. What on earth would we do if WW3 breaks out? No time to fight the enemy, only time for public wailing and sobbing because somebody died somewhere. We are doomed, I tell you! I’m left wondering whether you would show any emotion if you saw a video of those close to you screaming just before being burnt to death? What a weird thing to say bearing in mind what I have already said. I wonder whether you would show any emotion if you saw a video of children being blown up and poisoned in Syria? Not sure why I am wondering that but it follows a similar logic to your point. Ie it’s not a sequitur to the topic under discussion nor my stated views on it. Anyway, the point, my slightly dim friend, is not who is going to sob and wail the loudest when videos of people being burnt to death are shown, rather that an inquiry is not the place to shown them. Most people saw the news at the time and the distressing images broadcast, I for one haven’t forgotten them and I doubt anyone in the inquiry has, so replaying them only goes to stoke emotion, trauma and misery, and does nothing to help find accountability or prevent a recurrence. |
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Post by naughtyfox on May 23, 2018 7:51:58 GMT
Anyway, Saudi Arabian terrorists had plenty more people jumping out of the World Trade Centre towers in New York, yet the UK is still happy to sell arms to that lovely regime.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 8:01:00 GMT
Society has changed, and the 'permitted outpourings of grief' at the enquiry reflect this.
I was at a funeral last week where pop songs formed part of the service.
Walking home afterwards we passed by a roadside shrine of flowers where a fatal accident had occured.
I believe that television brought the world (particularly America) into our homes, and our language and culture has changed as a consequence, aping the more emotionally relaxed style they see.
I find any public displays of emotion slightly embarrassing, but realise that it's me that's out of step.
The occupiers of Grenfel were the innocents.
Perhaps our embarrassment is a small price to pay for their friends and family to be able to grieve publicly.
Rog
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Post by Telemachus on May 23, 2018 8:07:36 GMT
Society has changed, and the 'permitted outpourings of grief' at the enquiry reflect this. I was at a funeral last week where pop songs formed part of the service. Walking home afterwards we passed by a roadside shrine of flowers where a fatal accident had occured. I believe that television brought the world (particularly America) into our homes, and our language and culture has changed as a consequence, aping the more emotionally relaxed style they see. I find any public displays of emotion slightly embarrassing, but realise that it's me that's out of step. The occupiers of Grenfel were the innocents. Perhaps our embarrassment is a small price to pay for their friends and family to be able to grieve publicly. Rog For me it is not about embarrassment - I don’t have to watch it all on the TV and rapidly stopped watching it when I realised what I was watching. For me it is about a very important inquiry being dumbed down and watered down by lots of emotional stuff instead of concentrating on the actual job in hand. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 8:12:01 GMT
Nick, not for the first time, I believe you are looking at the situation in a very one dimensional way. Yes the inquiry does need to look logically at the facts but to expect the people caught up in the disaster to act purely logically less than a year after the event is in my opinion both illogical and harsh. Part of working out what happened and more importantly what needs to be done to stop it happening again does need to look at not just the technicalities of the fire but the complaints made by residents about fire safety and why they seem to have been ignored, hence the decision to hear from the residents (at least in part). If the chair cannot gets to grips and sort out what is pertinent and what is an expression of grief/anger in a reasonably compassionate way then they should never have agreed to take the chair.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 23, 2018 8:18:47 GMT
The occupiers of Grenfel were the innocents. I thought many were knowingly there illegally. I should like to see a list of those who sub-letted their apartments to those who died - where are those sub-letters now? It's still going on today, the councils of London are rife with corruption. |
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Post by Telemachus on May 23, 2018 8:21:18 GMT
Nick, not for the first time, I believe you are looking at the situation in a very one dimensional way. Yes the inquiry does need to look logically at the facts but to expect the people caught up in the disaster to act purely logically less than a year after the event is in my opinion both illogical and harsh. Part of working out what happened and more importantly what needs to be done to stop it happening again does need to look at not just the technicalities of the fire but the complaints made by residents about fire safety and why they seem to have been ignored, hence the decision to hear from the residents (at least in part). If the chair cannot gets to grips and sort out what is pertinent and what is an expression of grief/anger in a reasonably compassionate way then they should never have agreed to take the chair. I think you are conflating several things. Yes of course the previous residents’ complaints should be heard and taken into account. Pretty damning! But that is in no way related to all the mawkish sentimental stuff that has been platformed. Of course these people have suffered loss and grief, but as I said, the enquiry isn’t the place to spend a long time venting it. It is a degeneration into “enquiry by sentiment/public/media rule” which, in my opinion, is a seriously worrying development. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 8:43:12 GMT
Nick, not for the first time, I believe you are looking at the situation in a very one dimensional way. Yes the inquiry does need to look logically at the facts but to expect the people caught up in the disaster to act purely logically less than a year after the event is in my opinion both illogical and harsh. Part of working out what happened and more importantly what needs to be done to stop it happening again does need to look at not just the technicalities of the fire but the complaints made by residents about fire safety and why they seem to have been ignored, hence the decision to hear from the residents (at least in part). If the chair cannot gets to grips and sort out what is pertinent and what is an expression of grief/anger in a reasonably compassionate way then they should never have agreed to take the chair. I think you are conflating several things. Yes of course the previous residents’ complaints should be heard and taken into account. Pretty damning! But that is in no way related to all the mawkish sentimental stuff that has been platformed. Of course these people have suffered loss and grief, but as I said, the enquiry isn’t the place to spend a long time venting it. It is a degeneration into “enquiry by sentiment/public/media rule” which, in my opinion, is a seriously worrying development. And I think you are conflating the Commemoration Hearings (estimated 9 days) with the rest of the inquiry (estimated 70 days) and kept quite separate from each other for reasons that I'm sure we would agree on. |
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Post by lollygagger on May 23, 2018 8:46:05 GMT
The usual complaint about such inquiries is that those effected didn't get a chance to speak. Those in charge, people like Nick perhaps, like it that way. It allows the professionals to come to their conclusions without anyone publicly pointing out the obvious flaws. As the facts are already widely known, perhaps it's been decided that this is a good enquiry to let them speak so that before the next cover up enquiry it can be decided that it added nothing but delay and expense and the idea shelved.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 8:46:28 GMT
I’m left wondering whether you would show any emotion if you saw a video of those close to you screaming just before being burnt to death? I wonder whether you would show any emotion if you saw a video of children being blown up and poisoned in Syria? Yes, I would , and I’m guessing anyone with a heart would...even you Nick. If the media showed images of children being killed (in the name of war) as much as showing footage of the latest exploits of world leaders, celebs, royal family etc, we might see some real changes for the better in this corrupt world. Public opinion can be effective given the full picture but of course that would be against the wishes of those who make a lot of money, and gain a lot of control, through war and making short cuts. So long as greed and selfishness rule over love and kindness we ARE “doomed”. |
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Post by peterboat on May 23, 2018 8:48:41 GMT
These people were let down by people like you, Don't think so Graham, These people were let down by the likes of .....Come to our country, we have plenty of resources and space to house you...Tony Bliar. You remember, that cowardly impertinent little shit. The war criminal that saw me dumped into Iraq the first time round for no reason, where I lost some very close personal friends. Do I have an out pouring of grief?....Answer...NO. We must live in the same world same happened to me Arsehole that Blair is |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 9:27:17 GMT
Don't think so Graham, These people were let down by the likes of .....Come to our country, we have plenty of resources and space to house you...Tony Bliar. You remember, that cowardly impertinent little shit. The war criminal that saw me dumped into Iraq the first time round for no reason, where I lost some very close personal friends. Do I have an out pouring of grief?....Answer...NO. We must live in the same world same happened to me Arsehole that Blair is Once most politicians get above a certain level they are no more than puppets. Stumpy brings up a very relevant point though. I’m guessing everyone would show more emotion and drive if someone close to them is affected. Even more so if you were there when they got killed. Nowadays we can kill people using remote control from the other side of the world. We don’t have to look into their eyes. We don’t have to be close. If we had to see the outcome of our actions, we might think twice. |
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