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Post by redfox226 on Jan 2, 2019 22:20:55 GMT
I seek the collective Forum wisdom - especially Tony Dunkley's - regarding the above transit - specifically is there a duty to make Humber VTS aware of ones intentions, or will contacting lockkeepers alone be sufficient?
I intend making the transit in a 20ft trailer sailer with 1ft draft on a neap tide at slack low water.
I have ABP Charts registered in Google Earth, Boating Assoc 'Charts' Ouse and Trent, full tides information and Waternav planner installed on the Boat Laptop.
TIA
David
Redfox 'Foxglove'
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Post by peterboat on Jan 2, 2019 23:15:18 GMT
Same answer as on tother channel but Tony will chat to you tomorrow about it
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 2, 2019 23:55:41 GMT
I seek the collective Forum wisdom - especially Tony Dunkley's - regarding the above transit - specifically is there a duty to make Humber VTS aware of ones intentions, or will contacting lockkeepers alone be sufficient? I intend making the transit in a 20ft trailer sailer with 1ft draft on a neap tide at slack low water. I have ABP Charts registered in Google Earth, Boating Assoc 'Charts' Ouse and Trent, full tides information and Waternav planner installed on the Boat Laptop. TIA David Redfox 'Foxglove' Hello, David, and welcome to TB. Firstly, the question of giving the VTS at Spurn a shout so they know you're on passage. There's no obligation for pleasure craft to report to the VTS, but by all means call them as you're passing Howden outbound, if only to ensure that somebody is aware that you're underway, where you are, and your intended destination. Also, give them a shout as you're passing Keadby/Gunness wharves inbound so they know you're out of the area where there are going to be, or could be, any shipping movements imminent. There's no point in calling the C&RT controlled lock into the canal at Keadby, . . . you're not on their waters, and they won't be in the slightest bit interested. If you aim to be rounding Apex Light into the Trent at (local) LW then there won't be any shipping or other commercials on the move in the Ouse between Howden and Apex, or in the Trent up to Keadby, at that time because the few ships that do go up to the Trent wharves (Flixborough, Grove, Keadby and Gunness) or up the Ouse to Goole or Howden, on small tides won't have enough water under them to float until after (local) half tide/flood (Neaps), at the very earliest. There is very little drop in tide/water levels in the Ouse below Goole during the last hour to hour and a half of a Neap Ebb, and there are 'least depths' at (local) LW of 3' - 4' in the deepwater channel in the Ouse below Goole and around 3' in the Trent below Burton Stather, increasing to around 4' over the bars at Mere Dyke, Flixborough, and Keadby Low Bar, so with a boat of your draught you could safely make the Ouse leg of the passage without any serious worries over the consequences of grounding, and without the need to get down the Ouse to Trent End well before (local)LW and waiting for the Flood up the Trent, which on Neaps is a very gentle and unspectacular event, . . rather like watching things happen in slow motion, and very different from a really big Spring Flood with rises of sometimes up to 1' - 2' in the first 10 - 15 minutes, and an almost instantaneous reversal of tide direction/flow. If you've got some idea of when you'll be doing this, I can work out the times of Flood at Trent End over a period of a day or two either side of the bottom of Neaps for you. Depending on where you're going to start from, and the time of year, if you are determined to make this journey only on the smallest of Neaps, you might have no choice other than to make the first hour or two of the passage in the dark, irrespective of whether or not you are set on arriving at/rounding Apex before or with the first of the Flood, or waiting for it for an hour or two at Trent End. Whilst we're still on GMT, the times of the smallest of the (daytime) Neap Floods, at Trent End, will always be roughly between 0930 and 1030hrs, and if you're penning out into the Ouse at Goole and want to make use of the Free Tide Time (up to Goole HW + 1.5 hours), then you'll be having to clear Ocean Lock, on the previous tide's Ebb, by roughly 0330 to 0430hrs, or pay-up for an out of FTT pen at around roughly 0800 - 0900hrs . If you're going later in the year, when we're on BST, then add 1 hour to the above times.
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Post by redfox226 on Jan 3, 2019 8:13:29 GMT
Thanks Tony Used to sail from Humber Mouth, so used to VTS is all...
Thanks - this confirmed my reading - plan is to move from Selby (nearest slipway available!) on 17th or 31st March. My tidecalcs for 17th give (at Blacktoft) Sunrise 06:15 and low water stand from 09:30-11:00 with 0.8m least depth above CD so plenty of time to get to Trent Falls for Low Water (Hull speed is ~6Kn). Times on 31st Mar are similar - difference then is I wouldn't have to book Boston Grand Sluice 5 days before!
Would your views coincide with this?
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Post by cygnus on Jan 3, 2019 9:19:45 GMT
Hello Redfox, You probably know already but there are 2 slipways in Goole, and 1 at Blue Water marina in Thorne. I presume you will have mast up, so the 2 at Stanilands would be of no use. Or would it? Joe
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 3, 2019 10:23:05 GMT
Thanks Tony Used to sail from Humber Mouth, so used to VTS is all... Thanks - this confirmed my reading - plan is to move from Selby (nearest slipway available!) on 17th or 31st March. My tidecalcs for 17th give (at Blacktoft) Sunrise 06:15 and low water stand from 09:30-11:00 with 0.8m least depth above CD so plenty of time to get to Trent Falls for Low Water (Hull speed is ~6Kn). Times on 31st Mar are similar - difference then is I wouldn't have to book Boston Grand Sluice 5 days before! Would your views coincide with this? Yes, . . pretty much the same, although your time for Flood at Blacktoft is a bit on the early side if tide times and heights are on prediction. Flood at Apex/Trent End will probably be around 1130Hrs on the 17th of March - Hull HW minus about 3.5 hours, but dependent on the usual variables of wind direction and atmospheric pressure - and on those small tides around that time, it won't amount to much more than a few inches rise in tide/river level whilst there's still a bit of Ebb running down. The tide in the Trent is unlikely to start moving much, ie. 'running up' at Trent End, before 1200 to 1230hrs, so go steady for the first half an hour up the Trent, or at least until you begin to start getting a noticeble 'push' from it, otherwise you'll be too early on it all the way to Gainsborough and burning extra fuel for nothing. You'll probably begin to feel some useful 'help' from the Flood somewhere between Ewsters and Owston Ferry. High water at Selby will have been at around 0430hrs on 17 March, and with no resident lock keeper there anymore, you'll need to arrange/book a pen into the river for around 0830 hrs in case there's nothing expected down from Naburn, and if C&RT don't bother to man the lock at all because of that.
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Post by redfox226 on Jan 3, 2019 11:15:16 GMT
Hello Redfox, You probably know already but there are 2 slipways in Goole, and 1 at Blue Water marina in Thorne. I presume you will have mast up, so the 2 at Stanilands would be of no use. Or would it? Joe I live in Wakefield, and keep the boat here over winter - there are no usable slipways around here (all blocked), and Selby was closer than Goole, but I was unaware of Stanilands and Blue Water at Thorne, which would be about the same by road as Selby and considerably shorter on the canal/river. Mast will be down, and air draft then is about 4ft. Would Stainforth & Keadby work for me? Thanks for the steer, I'll certainly check Stanilands out......
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Post by redfox226 on Jan 3, 2019 11:18:21 GMT
Yes, . . pretty much the same, although your time for Flood at Blacktoft is a bit on the early side if tide times and heights are on prediction. Flood at Apex/Trent End will probably be around 1130Hrs on the 17th of March - Hull HW minus about 3.5 hours, but dependent on the usual variables of wind direction and atmospheric pressure - and on those small tides around that time, it won't amount to much more than a few inches rise in tide/river level whilst there's still a bit of Ebb running down. The tide in the Trent is unlikely to start moving much, ie. 'running up' at Trent End, before 1200 to 1230hrs, so go steady for the first half an hour up the Trent, or at least until you begin to start getting a noticeble 'push' from it, otherwise you'll be too early on it all the way to Gainsborough and burning extra fuel for nothing. You'll probably begin to feel some useful 'help' from the Flood somewhere between Ewsters and Owston Ferry. High water at Selby will have been at around 0430hrs on 17 March, and with no resident lock keeper there anymore, you'll need to arrange/book a pen into the river for around 0830 hrs in case there's nothing expected down from Naburn, and if C&RT don't bother to man the lock at all because of that. Thanks again Tony, I was thinking of penning at 0700ish.. but maybe the keeper wouldn't want to get out of bed......
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Post by cygnus on Jan 3, 2019 12:09:07 GMT
Hello again Redfox, No problems for you from Thorne to Keadby on the canal, there is a lift bridge and some swing bridges, and I guess about a 4 hour trip steady away. With that airdraft you just might sneak under some of them, you never know. There's also a slipway in West Stockwith basin to consider but maybe that's a bit too far and out of the way for you. Joe
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Post by redfox226 on Jan 3, 2019 14:24:03 GMT
Hello again Redfox, No problems for you from Thorne to Keadby on the canal, there is a lift bridge and some swing bridges, and I guess about a 4 hour trip steady away. With that airdraft you just might sneak under some of them, you never know. There's also a slipway in West Stockwith basin to consider but maybe that's a bit too far and out of the way for you. Joe Thanks for that Joe - might just increase ballast to reduce airdraft!!
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 4, 2019 20:54:17 GMT
Whilst glancing through CWDF's latest crop of contributions earlier I came across one in redfox226's 'Transiting Trent Falls Ouse to Trent' thread by CWDF member 'Fitter Kieron' which gives rise to some serious concerns over the potential dangers posed by the Flood to small craft grounding over the Low water period or first of the Flood on the outer end of Middle Sand (now re-named Island Sand) in the Lower Trent. This is what he said : -
Fitter kieron Location:Goole Boat Name:Vixen Posted 6 hours ago For someone like me who might only access the Trent via the Ouse on my boat maybe only a handful of times in my life the Boating Association books are essential. The navigational notes, transit lines and having every marker light and feature to gauge progress is really reassuring. Everything is there and easy to read. I would like to make this trip again to access the Chesterfield canal from Barmby in one day. Setting off from the anchor point at Trent falls last time i could feel the boat sliding over a mud bank so maybe next time i will sit on anchor longer. Also found that the flow on the flood tide past Keadby was really strong and i used most if not all of my 27hp to get into the lock ____________________________________________
The sentence underlined and in bold is the matter of concern. From what he's said it can be concluded that he was anchored over the LW period at or near the point designated as an anchorage on ABP's Charts, close to the Western training wall and roughly halfway between South Trent Light and Adlingfleet (Old river Don outfall) Light.
On mean tides (halfway between Neaps and Springs) and above the Flood begins to run strongly up the Trent immediately after LW, and any inbound boat leaving that anchorage and heading for the Eastern side marked channel (Cliff End Leading Lights) at or shortly after LW is likely to be set towards and grounded on the outer end of Middle Sand by the strength and speed of the tide. It is at this point that things get really dangerous for small craft. Once aground and held by the tide on the outer end of Middle (Island) Sand it is impossible for any boat to escape until the tide has 'made' enough for it to float over the shallowest areas, and the strength of the tide can be sufficient to roll small vessels over long before there is sufficient depth for them to float clear.
I posted several warnings to this effect before I was permanently banned from CWDF, and ABP - Humber publish the same warning in the Pleasure Craft Navigation pages on their website. Would someone from here please relay this information to 'Fitter Kieron', and anyone else on CWDF who may or could use this marked Trent End anchorage, . . they just might not be as lucky as he was !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 21:00:50 GMT
Whilst glancing through CWDF's latest crop of contributions earlier I came across one in redfox226's 'Transiting Trent Falls Ouse to Trent' thread by CWDF member ' Fitter Kieron' which gives rise to some serious concerns over the potential dangers posed by the Flood to small craft grounding over the Low water period or first of the Flood on the outer end of Middle Sand (now re-named Island Sand) in the Lower Trent. This is what he said : - Fitter kieron Location:Goole Boat Name:Vixen Posted 6 hours ago For someone like me who might only access the Trent via the Ouse on my boat maybe only a handful of times in my life the Boating Association books are essential. The navigational notes, transit lines and having every marker light and feature to gauge progress is really reassuring. Everything is there and easy to read. I would like to make this trip again to access the Chesterfield canal from Barmby in one day. Setting off from the anchor point at Trent falls last time i could feel the boat sliding over a mud bank so maybe next time i will sit on anchor longer. Also found that the flow on the flood tide past Keadby was really strong and i used most if not all of my 27hp to get into the lock ____________________________________________ The sentence underlined and in bold is the matter of concern. From what he's said it can be concluded that he was anchored over the LW period at or near the point designated as an anchorage on ABP's Charts, close to the Western training wall and roughly halfway between South Trent Light and Adlingfleet (Old river Don outfall) Light. On mean tides (halfway between Neaps and Springs) and above the Flood begins to run strongly up the Trent immediately after LW, and any inbound boat leaving that anchorage and heading for the Eastern side marked channel (Cliff End Leading Lights) at or shortly after LW is likely to be set towards and grounded on the outer end of Middle Sand by the strength and speed of the tide. It is at this point that things get really dangerous for small craft. Once aground and held by the tide on the outer end of Middle (Island Sand) it is impossible for any boat to escape until the tide has 'made' enough for it to float over the shallowest areas, and the strength of the tide can be sufficient to roll small vessels over long before there is sufficient depth for them to float clear. I posted several warnings to this effect before I was permanently banned from CWDF, and ABP - Humber publish the same warning in the Pleasure Craft Navigation pages on their website. Would someone from TB please relay this information to ' Fitter Kieron', and anyone else on CWDF who may or could use this marked Trent End anchorage, . . they just might not be as lucky as he was ! Trouble is Tony, youβve got muppets like this bipping in with his twopence worth. Flyboy Flyboy Member 125 1697 posts Gender:Male Location:Derbyshire Boat Name:Phoebe Report post #20 Posted 2 hours ago (edited) On 02/01/2019 at 21:44, Phil Ambrose said: Hi David, now I hope I will not get into trouble for posting this, but Tony Dunkley has a wealth of knowledge in this area, unfortunately he is unable to use this site but can be found on Thunderboat I'm certain he can assist. Phil Maybe TD can help, but do you really have to act as Thunderboat recruiting sergeant ? In TD's thread "Tempt CWDF'ers over here for some useful advice" implies you can't get good advice on this forum. There is very good advice on this forum. It does you no credit posting on TD's behalf because he's banned from this forum. Edited 2 hours ago by Flyboy Funny how Flyboy likes a lurk here and a whine over there but like many others canβt pull some big boy pants on and voice his displeasure over here - yet another oddball hiding behind the CWDF ban hammer π€¬π§
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 4, 2019 21:23:25 GMT
Whilst glancing through CWDF's latest crop of contributions earlier I came across one in redfox226's 'Transiting Trent Falls Ouse to Trent' thread by CWDF member ' Fitter Kieron' which gives rise to some serious concerns over the potential dangers posed by the Flood to small craft grounding over the Low water period or first of the Flood on the outer end of Middle Sand (now re-named Island Sand) in the Lower Trent. This is what he said : - Fitter kieron Location:Goole Boat Name:Vixen Posted 6 hours ago For someone like me who might only access the Trent via the Ouse on my boat maybe only a handful of times in my life the Boating Association books are essential. The navigational notes, transit lines and having every marker light and feature to gauge progress is really reassuring. Everything is there and easy to read. I would like to make this trip again to access the Chesterfield canal from Barmby in one day. Setting off from the anchor point at Trent falls last time i could feel the boat sliding over a mud bank so maybe next time i will sit on anchor longer. Also found that the flow on the flood tide past Keadby was really strong and i used most if not all of my 27hp to get into the lock ____________________________________________ The sentence underlined and in bold is the matter of concern. From what he's said it can be concluded that he was anchored over the LW period at or near the point designated as an anchorage on ABP's Charts, close to the Western training wall and roughly halfway between South Trent Light and Adlingfleet (Old river Don outfall) Light. On mean tides (halfway between Neaps and Springs) and above the Flood begins to run strongly up the Trent immediately after LW, and any inbound boat leaving that anchorage and heading for the Eastern side marked channel (Cliff End Leading Lights) at or shortly after LW is likely to be set towards and grounded on the outer end of Middle Sand by the strength and speed of the tide. It is at this point that things get really dangerous for small craft. Once aground and held by the tide on the outer end of Middle (Island Sand) it is impossible for any boat to escape until the tide has 'made' enough for it to float over the shallowest areas, and the strength of the tide can be sufficient to roll small vessels over long before there is sufficient depth for them to float clear. I posted several warnings to this effect before I was permanently banned from CWDF, and ABP - Humber publish the same warning in the Pleasure Craft Navigation pages on their website. Would someone from TB please relay this information to ' Fitter Kieron', and anyone else on CWDF who may or could use this marked Trent End anchorage, . . they just might not be as lucky as he was ! Trouble is Tony, youβve got muppets like this bipping in with his twopence worth. Flyboy Flyboy Member 125 1697 posts Gender:Male Location:Derbyshire Boat Name:Phoebe Report post #20 Posted 2 hours ago (edited) On 02/01/2019 at 21:44, Phil Ambrose said: Hi David, now I hope I will not get into trouble for posting this, but Tony Dunkley has a wealth of knowledge in this area, unfortunately he is unable to use this site but can be found on Thunderboat I'm certain he can assist. Phil Maybe TD can help, but do you really have to act as Thunderboat recruiting sergeant ? In TD's thread "Tempt CWDF'ers over here for some useful advice" implies you can't get good advice on this forum. There is very good advice on this forum. It does you no credit posting on TD's behalf because he's banned from this forum. Edited 2 hours ago by Flyboy Funny how Flyboy likes a lurk here and a whine over there but like many others canβt pull some big boy pants on and voice his displeasure over here - yet another oddball hiding behind the CWDF ban hammer π€¬π§ It says it all really, doesn't it, . . I'm sure Phil will consider himself to have been suitably chastised by the sanctimonious, vapouring twerp who posted that !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2019 21:35:40 GMT
Trouble is Tony, youβve got muppets like this bipping in with his twopence worth. Flyboy Flyboy Member 125 1697 posts Gender:Male Location:Derbyshire Boat Name:Phoebe Report post #20 Posted 2 hours ago (edited) On 02/01/2019 at 21:44, Phil Ambrose said: Hi David, now I hope I will not get into trouble for posting this, but Tony Dunkley has a wealth of knowledge in this area, unfortunately he is unable to use this site but can be found on Thunderboat I'm certain he can assist. Phil Maybe TD can help, but do you really have to act as Thunderboat recruiting sergeant ? In TD's thread "Tempt CWDF'ers over here for some useful advice" implies you can't get good advice on this forum. There is very good advice on this forum. It does you no credit posting on TD's behalf because he's banned from this forum. Edited 2 hours ago by Flyboy Funny how Flyboy likes a lurk here and a whine over there but like many others canβt pull some big boy pants on and voice his displeasure over here - yet another oddball hiding behind the CWDF ban hammer π€¬π§ It says it all really, doesn't it, . . I'm sure Phil will consider himself to have been suitably chastised by the sanctimonious, vapouring twerp who posted that ! Indeed! One small benefit of that type of person posting like that is they make it much easier to identify them as a bit of a pudding, having his boat name displayed is an added bonus; should I come across a boat called Pheobe on my travels Iβll be very suspicious of the owner! - much like those idiots that put little clip on flag of St George or Reindeer antlers on their cars - thereby advertising the fact they canβt drive and are quite possibly a bit simple.
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Post by JohnV on Jan 4, 2019 21:43:28 GMT
Whilst glancing through CWDF's latest crop of contributions earlier I came across one in redfox226's 'Transiting Trent Falls Ouse to Trent' thread by CWDF member ' Fitter Kieron' which gives rise to some serious concerns over the potential dangers posed by the Flood to small craft grounding over the Low water period or first of the Flood on the outer end of Middle Sand (now re-named Island Sand) in the Lower Trent. This is what he said : - Fitter kieron Location:Goole Boat Name:Vixen Posted 6 hours ago For someone like me who might only access the Trent via the Ouse on my boat maybe only a handful of times in my life the Boating Association books are essential. The navigational notes, transit lines and having every marker light and feature to gauge progress is really reassuring. Everything is there and easy to read. I would like to make this trip again to access the Chesterfield canal from Barmby in one day. Setting off from the anchor point at Trent falls last time i could feel the boat sliding over a mud bank so maybe next time i will sit on anchor longer. Also found that the flow on the flood tide past Keadby was really strong and i used most if not all of my 27hp to get into the lock ____________________________________________ The sentence underlined and in bold is the matter of concern. From what he's said it can be concluded that he was anchored over the LW period at or near the point designated as an anchorage on ABP's Charts, close to the Western training wall and roughly halfway between South Trent Light and Adlingfleet (Old river Don outfall) Light. ...........SNIPHi Tony ...... was reading that post/warning of yours. Under those conditions (neap tide and early on the flood) In a very shoal draft craft would it be safer when leaving the anchorage near South Trent Beacon to go upstream hugging the West bank through the West Trent channel ?
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