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Post by Telemachus on Apr 24, 2019 21:57:13 GMT
Both our bow and stern fenders could ride up if caught, is that really unusual? Yes, . . it is ! I’m not sure if you are implying that fenders at both ends should be able to be lifted up but often can’t be on modern boats, or whether you think fenders shouldn’t be able to be lifted up. The former, I would hope.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 24, 2019 21:58:10 GMT
From my reading of the Drum Major report, the main issue was that the crew members operating the locks were too slow in noticing that the manoeuvre was going wrong, and aborting it. The main issue was that the boat hung up on the bottom gates as the water drained out of the lock chamber, . . everything else was either contributory or incidental. And yet, in your original post, you said... "Working, or cargo carrying, canal boats of all types invariably worked downhill locks with the boat's stem/stem fender right up against the bottom gates, and almost invariably with a light line of some sort led up onto the lockside or gates to keep it there and to prevent the boats from drifting back over the cill as the water drained out of the lock chamber. It appears that this well proven and long established practice has been completely abandoned by the pleasure boating fraternity".
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 24, 2019 22:01:12 GMT
That's quite a well put together report which comes close to identifying the two main reasons for so many 'down-hilling' pleasure craft getting hung up as the water level drops in lock chambers, which is in turn of course, the reason why keeping back from the bottom gates has become the generally accepted, but seriously flawed, practice for pleasure craft working downhill locks. The following sentences from the report point to one of those two reasons, namely the wholly inadvisable and foolhardy use of ahead propulsion to keep the boat away from the cill : Drum Major moved forward in the lock. There were no restraining ropes and she moved, either because of water movement in the lock or because the engine was moved slightly ahead to ensure the rudder remained clear of the sill, or a combination of both.
Having opened the left-hand bottom paddle, the care assistant from Drum Major remained on the lockside by Drum Major’s bow while at the stem, her colleague, DSO( 1), had put the engine in neutral ready to engage it ahead to ensure the stern and rudder remained clear of the sill. ______________________________________________ The other major source of 'hang-ups', the stem fender, also gets some attention, although without properly identifying the real problem, . . . which is of course the design and construction of pleasure craft stem fenders, together with the way in which they are held in place, . . again differing so much and so disastrously from the working boat practices evolved and proved over a couple of centuries, or so ! Why is it “wholly inadvisable and foolhardy” to use the engine to position the boat? Clearly in this case, the incompetence of the operator meant that it went wrong, but using ropes presents just as many possibilities for cocking up in a disastrous way. The secret is to be competent and paying attention. Tying the boat up in a lock does not absolve the operators from being competent and paying attention, and I would say it is a less error-tolerant way to do things.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 24, 2019 22:13:25 GMT
I’m not sure if you are implying that fenders at both ends should be able to be lifted up but often can’t be on modern boats, or whether you think fenders shouldn’t be able to be lifted up. The former, I would hope. What I'm saying is that the one and only thing holding fenders down in place should be - MUST be - nothing but gravity ! I'm also saying that the design and construction of working/commercial boat stem fenders allowed them to distort and roll out from under anything they did get caught under, whereas the knitted/covered, constructed around internal lengths of chain, 'back fender' * type of stem fender now found on pleasure craft won't do so. *A 'back fender' is/was the rounded fender that sits behind/aft of the two 'tipcats' that were standard on the counter of a working 'motor' (narrowboat).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2019 22:18:20 GMT
I’m not sure if you are implying that fenders at both ends should be able to be lifted up but often can’t be on modern boats, or whether you think fenders shouldn’t be able to be lifted up. The former, I would hope. What I'm saying is that the one and only thing holding fenders down in place should be - MUST be - nothing but gravity ! I'm also saying that the design and construction of working/commercial boat stem fenders allowed them to distort and roll out from under anything they did get caught under, whereas the knitted/covered, constructed around internal lengths of chain, 'back fender' type of stem fender now found on pleasure craft won't do so. Depends on how they are fitted. Both ours could ride up with ease. I made sure of it when i fitted them. Perhaps not all leisure boaters are as dim as you would like to make out?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 24, 2019 22:21:13 GMT
That's quite a well put together report which comes close to identifying the two main reasons for so many 'down-hilling' pleasure craft getting hung up as the water level drops in lock chambers, which is in turn of course, the reason why keeping back from the bottom gates has become the generally accepted, but seriously flawed, practice for pleasure craft working downhill locks. The following sentences from the report point to one of those two reasons, namely the wholly inadvisable and foolhardy use of ahead propulsion to keep the boat away from the cill : Drum Major moved forward in the lock. There were no restraining ropes and she moved, either because of water movement in the lock or because the engine was moved slightly ahead to ensure the rudder remained clear of the sill, or a combination of both.
Having opened the left-hand bottom paddle, the care assistant from Drum Major remained on the lockside by Drum Major’s bow while at the stem, her colleague, DSO( 1), had put the engine in neutral ready to engage it ahead to ensure the stern and rudder remained clear of the sill. ______________________________________________ The other major source of 'hang-ups', the stem fender, also gets some attention, although without properly identifying the real problem, . . . which is of course the design and construction of pleasure craft stem fenders, together with the way in which they are held in place, . . again differing so much and so disastrously from the working boat practices evolved and proved over a couple of centuries, or so ! Why is it “wholly inadvisable and foolhardy” to use the engine to position the boat? That isn't what I said. Read my post again, and you'll see that it actually says : "the wholly inadvisable and foolhardy use of ahead propulsion to keep the boat away from the cill", . . which not the same thing as - 'to position the boat'.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 24, 2019 23:07:20 GMT
The main issue was that the boat hung up on the bottom gates as the water drained out of the lock chamber, . . everything else was either contributory or incidental. And yet, in your original post, you said... "Working, or cargo carrying, canal boats of all types invariably worked downhill locks with the boat's stem/stem fender right up against the bottom gates, and almost invariably with a light line of some sort led up onto the lockside or gates to keep it there and to prevent the boats from drifting back over the cill as the water drained out of the lock chamber. It appears that this well proven and long established practice has been completely abandoned by the pleasure boating fraternity". . . . . . . and the point you're making is ?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 24, 2019 23:21:35 GMT
That's quite a well put together report which comes close to identifying the two main reasons for so many 'down-hilling' pleasure craft getting hung up as the water level drops in lock chambers, which is in turn of course, the reason why keeping back from the bottom gates has become the generally accepted, but seriously flawed, practice for pleasure craft working downhill locks. The following sentences from the report point to one of those two reasons, namely the wholly inadvisable and foolhardy use of ahead propulsion to keep the boat away from the cill : Drum Major moved forward in the lock. There were no restraining ropes and she moved, either because of water movement in the lock or because the engine was moved slightly ahead to ensure the rudder remained clear of the sill, or a combination of both.
Having opened the left-hand bottom paddle, the care assistant from Drum Major remained on the lockside by Drum Major’s bow while at the stem, her colleague, DSO( 1), had put the engine in neutral ready to engage it ahead to ensure the stern and rudder remained clear of the sill. ______________________________________________ The other major source of 'hang-ups', the stem fender, also gets some attention, although without properly identifying the real problem, . . . which is of course the design and construction of pleasure craft stem fenders, together with the way in which they are held in place, . . again differing so much and so disastrously from the working boat practices evolved and proved over a couple of centuries, or so ! Tying the boat up in a lock does not absolve the operators from being competent and paying attention, and I would say it is a less error-tolerant way to do things. I couldn't agree more, but why have you introduced that at this juncture ? Nowhere in this thread or elsewhere have I mentioned anything other than having a line or rope 'ashore' on the lockside to use for keeping the boat up to the bottom gates, if necessary, by means of taking a turn around something convenient and/or to hand, . . NOT the same thing as your - "Tying the boat up in a lock".
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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 24, 2019 23:23:02 GMT
And yet, in your original post, you said... "Working, or cargo carrying, canal boats of all types invariably worked downhill locks with the boat's stem/stem fender right up against the bottom gates, and almost invariably with a light line of some sort led up onto the lockside or gates to keep it there and to prevent the boats from drifting back over the cill as the water drained out of the lock chamber. It appears that this well proven and long established practice has been completely abandoned by the pleasure boating fraternity". . . . . . . and the point you're making is ? Well, ignoring the fact that you don't seem to understand the difference between the bow of a boat and its stern, you seem to be advocating the exact same practice which led to the sinking of Drum Major.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 25, 2019 5:20:16 GMT
. . . . . . and the point you're making is ? . . . . . . . . . you seem to be advocating the exact same practice which led to the sinking of Drum Major. No, not at all, . . go back, read, and think about what's been written more carefully. For those with the wit to understand, I'm drawing attention to the fact that owing to the working boat practice of 'down-hilling' with the stem/stem fender on the bottom gate or gates being consigned to history by today's pleasure boating fraternity, that when left with no choice other than to work a downhill lock that way - for instance, as in the case of 'Drum Major', a 62' foot boat in a Leeds & Liverpool lock - they have no idea about the right way to do it, and nor are the boats they're using equipped with correctly fitted stem fenders of a suitable type and construction.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 7:13:30 GMT
Surely the only issue was that the fender was pushed too far forward into the top of the gate and no one was paying attention enough to realise.
This error was then compounded, with no one immediately noticing the cause of the 'strange trim'.
Whatever system is employed, safe passage through a lock requires attention to the job.
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 7:58:51 GMT
Hacksaw through one half of a chain link on the chains holding the fender in place.
Or use a proper forged weak link. I found loads of weak links when magnet fishing but being small items I usually discarded them.
Basically like a forged iron keyring but in the shape of a chain link.
Not sure if they were for fenders or something to do with the towing line but they will open up under a certain amount of load.
Interesting the Messing Around In Boats report about the accident calls it the "sill" not the "cill".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 8:33:30 GMT
The weak links are only pence (72 p I seem to recall) last time I bought one.
But personally I prefer to use the engine to stay away from gates.
Rog
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 25, 2019 16:23:36 GMT
Surely the only issue was that the fender was pushed too far forward into the top of the gate and no one was paying attention enough to realise. No, . . the real 'issue' is that the boat's bow hung up to an extent that led to the boat sinking in the lock chamber, and everyone's focus is/was on the speed and effectiveness of the crew's reaction to that, instead of focusing on a means of preventing the hang-up in the first place. Identifying and eliminating the cause is always a better approach to problem solving than taking steps to alleviate the problem every time it occurs !
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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 25, 2019 16:37:05 GMT
The weak links are only pence (72 p I seem to recall) last time I bought one. But personally I prefer to use the engine to stay away from gates. Rog Both my fenders will hinge upwards out of the way were they to be caught up in a lock gate, my rear button also has cable ties securing the support chains to themselves in such a way that they would break and release the button were an unusual amount of upward pressure to be imposed on it.
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