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Post by JohnV on May 11, 2019 8:35:45 GMT
Nope. I believe we should help the sectors of community who cannot help themselves but I believe those who can do but choose not to should live by their decisions. My incentive to continue working is to better myself and provide for my family, my husband and daughter share the same work ethic. We do pro bono work for those who need but can’t afford. I expect those who can afford but want something for nothing to look for that elsewhere. There are those on this forum and CWDF who have benefitted from my beliefs, I will not identify them, suffice to say they are not the members who identify themselves as my clients. A friend of mine worked in both Russia an Romania and the pickle that both countries for themselves into was a lesson in why extreme socialism doesn’t work. Sectors of the community who cannot help themselves: Currently in Britain the government identifies the disabled, families with children and the elderly as being these sectors. Would you agree with that? Have you stopped beating your wife yet ? ......... Yes ... incorrect ...... No .... incorrect First you have to define your definitions Remember a society that does not protect it's vulnerable members is not a society you would wish to live in
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Post by Clinton Cool on May 11, 2019 8:52:15 GMT
That's right, we need to work out who is vulnerable.
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Post by dyertribe on May 11, 2019 9:24:23 GMT
Nope. I believe we should help the sectors of community who cannot help themselves but I believe those who can do but choose not to should live by their decisions. My incentive to continue working is to better myself and provide for my family, my husband and daughter share the same work ethic. We do pro bono work for those who need but can’t afford. I expect those who can afford but want something for nothing to look for that elsewhere. There are those on this forum and CWDF who have benefitted from my beliefs, I will not identify them, suffice to say they are not the members who identify themselves as my clients. A friend of mine worked in both Russia an Romania and the pickle that both countries for themselves into was a lesson in why extreme socialism doesn’t work. Sectors of the community who cannot help themselves: Currently in Britain the government identifies the disabled, families with children and the elderly as being these sectors. Would you agree with that? Broadly, yes
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Post by naughtyfox on May 11, 2019 9:26:48 GMT
That's right, we need to work out who is vulnerable. It's already been pointed out that, although you don't like paying for other people's children, and you don't like paying for all the benefit scroungers, such as the 'disabled' who often get caught out playing golf or dancing at a disco on their Spanish holiday (well, as for the latter class, who does?!), you live in a society where you yourself benefit greatly from other people's input. You like whizzing around on your moped - the roads didn't just lay themselves down. Did you build any? The National Health Service is there for you to use whenever you need to. The railways are already in place and someone needs to pay the train drivers. Food and products are in the shops for you to select and buy - other people have put in effort to get them there. The canals were built by people who lived in extreme poverty - thanks to them, you are free to swan around on the water. What do you contribute to the society you live in and enjoy? You pay tax on this and that (VAT, income tax, for instance), you give CRT the licence money, and the insurance company something, and the BSS bloke £150 every for years (but those last three we can cancel out as the benefits are solely yours). Not having a go at you - just taking a step back and taking in the broad view. Have you ever considered driving a school bus? Now that's really 'Care in the Community' !
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Post by Jim on May 11, 2019 9:33:15 GMT
There is also the question of greed, living off the labour of others. There is only so much someone needs, after that tax them till they bleed. Start with jet setting absentee landlords. Cut down on air flight pollution too. What's to lose? Win win.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 11, 2019 9:41:38 GMT
I thought you and ricco were landlords, living off the sweat of others? I'm not a landlord. As for air pollution: 'Dame' Emma Thompson " This woman is a top twat - all these extinction twats say its fine for her to jet over because her support is important. No it isn't - bad enough these twats disrupt the lives of ordinary people but this bitch is telling people it's not OK to fly. She is in a privileged position, she can offset her carbon footprint by planting trees, well how about this Emma you twat, plant the trees and don't fly!!!! Instead of spending thousands on a First Class private seat, give the money to the poor souls who may have lost money being late for work, or drivers missing deliveries because your retard mates were blocking bridges, roads and trains. Stay in the USA you utter utter TWAT! "
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Post by dyertribe on May 11, 2019 9:44:41 GMT
There is also the question of greed, living off the labour of others. There is only so much someone needs, after that tax them till they bleed. Start with jet setting absentee landlords. Cut down on air flight pollution too. What's to lose? Win win. Who is to say what that “so much” is? You? Me? The fat cats? What’s to lose? The business owners who, seeing all their profits disappear into the Government’s coffers, decide to relocate themselves and their businesses to a country which looks more favourably on them. Those “living off the labour of others” includes the work-shy and scroungers.
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Post by Jim on May 11, 2019 10:03:58 GMT
There is also the question of greed, living off the labour of others. There is only so much someone needs, after that tax them till they bleed. Start with jet setting absentee landlords. Cut down on air flight pollution too. What's to lose? Win win. Who is to say what that “so much” is? You? Me? The fat cats? What’s to lose? The business owners who, seeing all their profits disappear into the Government’s coffers, decide to relocate themselves and their businesses to a country which looks more favourably on them. Those “living off the labour of others” includes the work-shy and scroungers. So someone "needs" eg 10 lambos and a superyatch? Why? As for bringing in the workshy etc, 2 wrongs don't make a right, they need dealing with too. That has nothing to do with socialism. There are feckless rich people around.
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Post by dyertribe on May 11, 2019 10:16:37 GMT
Who is to say what that “so much” is? You? Me? The fat cats? What’s to lose? The business owners who, seeing all their profits disappear into the Government’s coffers, decide to relocate themselves and their businesses to a country which looks more favourably on them. Those “living off the labour of others” includes the work-shy and scroungers. So someone "needs" eg 10 lambos and a superyatch? Why? As for bringing in the workshy etc, 2 wrongs don't make a right, they need dealing with too. That has nothing to do with socialism. There are feckless rich people around. Where did I say anyone needs lots of cars and boats? But if they want them and have earned the money fairly and honestly, or inherited it who are you, or anyone else to deny them it? Someone makes those cars and boats, so buying them employs people. Just because you dont want or haven’t got stuff doesn’t make it wrong for others. It may not be my cup of tea either but I don’t begrudge the possessions to those who want them.
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Post by Clinton Cool on May 11, 2019 11:13:43 GMT
That's right, we need to work out who is vulnerable. It's already been pointed out that, although you don't like paying for other people's children, and you don't like paying for all the benefit scroungers, such as the 'disabled' who often get caught out playing golf or dancing at a disco on their Spanish holiday (well, as for the latter class, who does?!), you live in a society where you yourself benefit greatly from other people's input. You like whizzing around on your moped - the roads didn't just lay themselves down. Did you build any? The National Health Service is there for you to use whenever you need to. The railways are already in place and someone needs to pay the train drivers. Food and products are in the shops for you to select and buy - other people have put in effort to get them there. The canals were built by people who lived in extreme poverty - thanks to them, you are free to swan around on the water. What do you contribute to the society you live in and enjoy? You pay tax on this and that (VAT, income tax, for instance), you give CRT the licence money, and the insurance company something, and the BSS bloke £150 every for years (but those last three we can cancel out as the benefits are solely yours). Not having a go at you - just taking a step back and taking in the broad view. Have you ever considered driving a school bus? Now that's really 'Care in the Community' ! I pay income tax, just like everyone else who earns over £12.5K.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 11, 2019 11:19:34 GMT
Yes, you pay income tax, that's what I said. But there's a lot more to participating in society than just getting some money and having a bit of that taken off you by the tax man.
I disagree with dyertribe's "who are you, or anyone else to deny them it?" - my answer is another human being / inhabitant of this planet who doesn't want other people needlessly polluting it. And, anyway, most people who have a lot of money haven't earned it honestly or fairly.
"Someone makes those cars and boats, so buying them employs people." - yes, I agree with this, we fly a lot, to employ people in the aviation industry.
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Post by Jim on May 11, 2019 11:34:55 GMT
So someone "needs" eg 10 lambos and a superyatch? Why? As for bringing in the workshy etc, 2 wrongs don't make a right, they need dealing with too. That has nothing to do with socialism. There are feckless rich people around. Where did I say anyone needs lots of cars and boats? But if they want them and have earned the money fairly and honestly, or inherited it who are you, or anyone else to deny them it? Someone makes those cars and boats, so buying them employs people. Just because you dont want or haven’t got stuff doesn’t make it wrong for others. It may not be my cup of tea either but I don’t begrudge the possessions to those who want them. Can you justify greed though.
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Post by Clinton Cool on May 11, 2019 11:36:30 GMT
OK, but if society insists that everyone must live in a way that maximises the 'good' to said society; how might such a system be enacted and policed without it being a carbon copy of Soviet USSR, or modern day China?
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Post by twbm2 on May 12, 2019 11:04:05 GMT
I am conflicted.
I would like to be part of a fairer society, think the current benefits system probably disincentivises (if that's a word) people who want to work because it removes benefits too early in the slow climb back up from no wage to a reasonable wage. I also think its abused by scroungers, but I have no idea how you would fairly differentiate between who was taking the piss and who wasn't other than very obvious extreme cases. I would accept a rise in my income tax if I was 100% sure it was going to go to support people who genuinely need it. I think the privatisation of services in social care, health, transport etc is a bad thing, with the companies involved more concerned about dividends than service.
Meanwhile I own a small business into which my wife and I have put a stupid amount of money, and real blood sweat and tears. It is now modestly successful and we are starting to recover the money we put in at a commensurate modest rate, whilst I continue to work full time in a separate field. Our biggest operating cost is staff - I think the current minimum / living wage are about right and we have no trouble recruiting and retaining people at those rates. Proposals from Labour to raise minimum wages would potentially put the business in jeopardy, putting 5 people out of work if it failed.
I have no love for the Conservatives who have comprehensively f*cked public services, but they gave me a business rates rebate again in the last budget. Elections for me are a choice between the venal self-serving bastards to the right and the woolly headed idealistic buffoons to the left. I note the Lib Dems did alright in the local by-elections - probably time to start paying more attention to them.
Short version: Socialism is great if you can afford it.
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Post by dyertribe on May 12, 2019 11:40:55 GMT
I am conflicted. I would like to be part of a fairer society, think the current benefits system probably disincentivises (if that's a word) people who want to work because it removes benefits too early in the slow climb back up from no wage to a reasonable wage. I also think its abused by scroungers, but I have no idea how you would fairly differentiate between who was taking the piss and who wasn't other than very obvious extreme cases. I would accept a rise in my income tax if I was 100% sure it was going to go to support people who genuinely need it. I think the privatisation of services in social care, health, transport etc is a bad thing, with the companies involved more concerned about dividends than service. Meanwhile I own a small business into which my wife and I have put a stupid amount of money, and real blood sweat and tears. It is now modestly successful and we are starting to recover the money we put in at a commensurate modest rate, whilst I continue to work full time in a separate field. Our biggest operating cost is staff - I think the current minimum / living wage are about right and we have no trouble recruiting and retaining people at those rates. Proposals from Labour to raise minimum wages would potentially put the business in jeopardy, putting 5 people out of work if it failed. I have no love for the Conservatives who have comprehensively f*cked public services, but they gave me a business rates rebate again in the last budget. Elections for me are a choice between the venal self-serving bastards to the right and the woolly headed idealistic buffoons to the left. I note the Lib Dems did alright in the local by-elections - probably time to start paying more attention to them. Short version: Socialism is great if you can afford it. Well said, our situation is similar except thar we no longer employ anyone except ourselves.
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