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Post by Graham on Jan 4, 2018 10:30:19 GMT
Maybe the battery thing may be close to being solved. Been working on some battery cost figures including charging. Relion 100Ah 50% discharge, comes out at cost pers year of £33.89 per year over the expected life of the battery Relion 100Ah 80% discharge, comes out at cost pers year of £49.33 per year over the expected life of the battery Victron Lithium 160Ah 50% discharge, comes out at cost pers year of £76.93 per year over the expected life of the battery Poweline T105 225Ah 50% discharge, comes out at cost pers year of £185.83 per year over the expected life of the battery Trojan T105 225A 50% discharge, comes out at cost pers year of £191.91 per year over the expected life of the battery You have lost me Graham I only paid 80 squids for my trojanoids which are on the bathtub Try adding the costs of charging them by engine which is what the majority do plus the cost of the batteries. etc. BTW Trojans cost 155 each delivered today
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 4, 2018 11:07:34 GMT
It's nothing but a Dyson, shiny, very colourful, but crap. It's days are numbered. Old money will always rule the roost. Yes, people have been telling me that all the way up from $2 I still think it is a classic bubble, waiting to burst. I think this because it has no intrinsic value. The “value” is in the complexity/ computing power required to mine. But with Moore’s law predicting doubling of computing power annually, surely as they become easier to mine, the value will fall? Yes I know Moore’s law isn’t being followed that accurately, but we still see significant increases in computing power annually. Like all bubbles, people make money out of nothing along the way, but eventually it all ends in tears for those still in at the end.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 11:14:05 GMT
Batteries are disposable items. There is no magic. It's also a lot cheaper than the bills at the house. Suck it up.
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 4, 2018 11:14:23 GMT
You have lost me Graham I only paid 80 squids for my trojanoids which are on the bathtub Try adding the costs of charging them by engine which is what the majority do plus the cost of the batteries. etc. BTW Trojans cost 155 each delivered today I think they are the next thing, however regarding your figures, remember that not everyone lives statically on a boat and runs the engine only for charging. If you are a proper continuous cruiser and cruise most days for long enough to fully charge the batteries, the marginal cost difference between charging lead acids vs lithiums becomes insignificant. But yes, if you rarely move your boat and run the engine statically to charge lead acids, lithiums would offer a huge advantage both in terms of cost but perhaps more importantly, convenience. But then again that presumes you continue to own the boat long enough to enjoy their full lifespan. What was the outcome of the issue regarding effect of the sudden interruption of charge current when the BMS declares them full, on the alternator? Did you buy any?
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2018 11:19:35 GMT
So "proper' continuous cruisers cruise everyday do they?
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 4, 2018 11:21:24 GMT
Batteries are disposable items. There is no magic. It's also a lot cheaper than the bills at the house. Suck it up. They are, but as I’ve just said lithiums present a lot of non-financial advantages: No worries about sulphation, leave them flat if you wish Can use them right down to a low SoC without worry Can charge them really fast (with a decent alternator) with no tapering off of charge current, so they can be fully charged from flat in a couple of hours. So no more endless droning of generators/engines for hours on end. I suppose the latter advantage is somewhat offset in summer with the proliferation of cheap solar, but a huge boon in winter. Oh and they are very light and maintenance free.
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 4, 2018 11:21:52 GMT
So "proper' continuous cruisers cruise everyday do they? Isn’t that what continuous cruise means?
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2018 11:22:26 GMT
So "proper' continuous cruisers cruise everyday do they? Isn’t that what continuous cruise means? no
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 4, 2018 11:26:35 GMT
Isn’t that what continuous cruise means? no Continuous: without interruption Cruise: cruise So yes. Interestingly, whilst most CCers remain static for many days, we met a live aboard chap on the KandA who was a bit like us - got itchy feet if he stayed in 1 place more than a day and tended to cruise every day. And he is the only person we’ve met who has lithium batteries!
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Post by lollygagger on Jan 4, 2018 11:32:03 GMT
More interestingly, continuous cruisers seem to exist only in the minds of those with a home mooring and that wish everyone was forced to have one. But you knew that.
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Post by kris on Jan 4, 2018 11:40:21 GMT
Continuous: without interruption Cruise: cruise So yes. Interestingly, whilst most CCers remain static for many days, we met a live aboard chap on the KandA who was a bit like us - got itchy feet if he stayed in 1 place more than a day and tended to cruise every day. And he is the only person we’ve met who has lithium batteries! so can you point me to where it mentions anything about continuous cruising in the waterways legislation?
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Post by Delta9 on Jan 4, 2018 11:58:49 GMT
Yes, people have been telling me that all the way up from $2 I still think it is a classic bubble, waiting to burst. I think this because it has no intrinsic value. The “value” is in the complexity/ computing power required to mine. But with Moore’s law predicting doubling of computing power annually, surely as they become easier to mine, the value will fall? Yes I know Moore’s law isn’t being followed that accurately, but we still see significant increases in computing power annually. Like all bubbles, people make money out of nothing along the way, but eventually it all ends in tears for those still in at the end. It has followed the classic bubble pattern multiple times. Every time the bubble pops it ends up higher than where it started from and then starts bubbling again. You have a bit of a misunderstanding of what gives it value and how it is mined. They don't ever become easier to mine. Difficulty of mining is changed regularly to keep the mining rate at 1 block every 10 minutes. If the mining power doubles, so does the difficulty.
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Post by Graham on Jan 4, 2018 12:22:11 GMT
Try adding the costs of charging them by engine which is what the majority do plus the cost of the batteries. etc. BTW Trojans cost 155 each delivered today I think they are the next thing, however regarding your figures, remember that not everyone lives statically on a boat and runs the engine only for charging. If you are a proper continuous cruiser and cruise most days for long enough to fully charge the batteries, the marginal cost difference between charging lead acids vs lithiums becomes insignificant. But yes, if you rarely move your boat and run the engine statically to charge lead acids, lithiums would offer a huge advantage both in terms of cost but perhaps more importantly, convenience. But then again that presumes you continue to own the boat long enough to enjoy their full lifespan. What was the outcome of the issue regarding effect of the sudden interruption of charge current when the BMS declares them full, on the alternator? Did you buy any? Most of the people I deal with are CC'rs in the liveaboard for a home view. We solved the end of charge problem so that ceased to be a problem just meant thinking outside the box and wiring alternator to starter battery not domestic. Something in my marine world which is standard as the starter is more important than the domestics. ETA BTW using a 70A alternator a 400Ah bank down to 80% DoD takes about just over 4 1/2 hours hours to fully charge 320Ahs. People will be in the days of charge once a week or less.
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Post by peterboat on Jan 4, 2018 12:29:36 GMT
Batteries are disposable items. There is no magic. It's also a lot cheaper than the bills at the house. Suck it up. They are, but as I’ve just said lithiums present a lot of non-financial advantages: No worries about sulphation, leave them flat if you wish Can use them right down to a low SoC without worry Can charge them really fast (with a decent alternator) with no tapering off of charge current, so they can be fully charged from flat in a couple of hours. So no more endless droning of generators/engines for hours on end. I suppose the latter advantage is somewhat offset in summer with the proliferation of cheap solar, but a huge boon in winter. Oh and they are very light and maintenance free. A Canadian company has also sorted out the overheating problem as well and at the same time trebled the capacity! If true it will be my buy of choice for the bathtub. Interestingly the Fisker electric car uses Graphine batteries which they claim are far better than Lithium. What I like about all this stuff is the speed of advance for a couple of hundred years we have gone nowhere and now batteries that might last us a lifetime with rapid charging are within reach
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Post by Graham on Jan 4, 2018 12:43:49 GMT
They are, but as I’ve just said lithiums present a lot of non-financial advantages: No worries about sulphation, leave them flat if you wish Can use them right down to a low SoC without worry Can charge them really fast (with a decent alternator) with no tapering off of charge current, so they can be fully charged from flat in a couple of hours. So no more endless droning of generators/engines for hours on end. I suppose the latter advantage is somewhat offset in summer with the proliferation of cheap solar, but a huge boon in winter. Oh and they are very light and maintenance free. A Canadian company has also sorted out the overheating problem as well and at the same time trebled the capacity! If true it will be my buy of choice for the bathtub. Interestingly the Fisker electric car uses Graphine batteries which they claim are far better than Lithium. What I like about all this stuff is the speed of advance for a couple of hundred years we have gone nowhere and now batteries that might last us a lifetime with rapid charging are within reach Could that be ReliON they have solve the overheating problems etc www.relionbattery.com/
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