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Post by Telemachus on Feb 28, 2018 21:15:54 GMT
But the point is that anyone who thinks the canal system was “effectively operating” in those days, has false memory syndrome. Every trip around the BCN was a major adventure. Infrastructure is MUCH better than it was then. You have been taken in by Tony’s rose tinted bullshit.By "those days" here we're talking about the 1960's when the surviving commercial traffic was outnumbering the pleasure craft. Until 1961 British Waterways were supplying Cadburys at Bournville (Worcester Cut) with chocolate crumb from Knighton (Shroppie's Cut), Thomas Clayton's traffics to various destinations around Brum/Oldbury area lasted until 1966, T & S Element had the (Brades Hall) phosphorus waste traffic, Willow Wren's (former BW) Northern fleet, and other operators, were loading coal at Cannock, Stevens and Keay were operating an industrial waste removal service with two tugs ('Judith Ann' and 'Caggy') and Joeys left tied outside various factories serving as skips, Willow Wren's Southern fleet were bringing timber ex-Brentford to Great Bridge (Tipton), spices to HP Sauce at Aston, and taking away cocoa residue from Bournville, via the North Stratford. On every one of these traffics the motors, or the tugs, were down to at least 3' 6'' draught, . . so, if anyone's indulging in "rose tinted bullshit'' it's you with your tripe about today's "infastructure'' being so "MUCH better" than back then. The fact that you regarded every (pleasure boat) trip around the BCN as being a ''major adventure" in the 1960's is simply a reflection of the lack of (canal) boating know-how of whoever was in charge of the boat you happened to be on at the time. We are talking about the late 60s, 1968 in fact. Most of that stuff you are wittering on about is not BCN (do you really think Bournville is on the BCN?), or on the mainline or just off it, or the reasonably good through routes ie B&F to Aldersley via mainline. I suspect there is a fair bit of the BCN you have never seen. During our various BCN trips in the late 60s I can’t recall ever encountering a working boat.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 28, 2018 23:28:26 GMT
By "those days" here we're talking about the 1960's when the surviving commercial traffic was outnumbering the pleasure craft. Until 1961 British Waterways were supplying Cadburys at Bournville (Worcester Cut) with chocolate crumb from Knighton (Shroppie's Cut), Thomas Clayton's traffics to various destinations around Brum/Oldbury area lasted until 1966, T & S Element had the (Brades Hall) phosphorus waste traffic, Willow Wren's (former BW) Northern fleet, and other operators, were loading coal at Cannock, Stevens and Keay were operating an industrial waste removal service with two tugs ('Judith Ann' and 'Caggy') and Joeys left tied outside various factories serving as skips, Willow Wren's Southern fleet were bringing timber ex-Brentford to Great Bridge (Tipton), spices to HP Sauce at Aston, and taking away cocoa residue from Bournville, via the North Stratford. On every one of these traffics the motors, or the tugs, were down to at least 3' 6'' draught, . . so, if anyone's indulging in "rose tinted bullshit'' it's you with your tripe about today's "infastructure'' being so "MUCH better" than back then. The fact that you regarded every (pleasure boat) trip around the BCN as being a ''major adventure" in the 1960's is simply a reflection of the lack of (canal) boating know-how of whoever was in charge of the boat you happened to be on at the time. We are talking about the late 60s, 1968 in fact. Most of that stuff you are wittering on about is not BCN (do you really think Bournville is on the BCN?), or on the mainline or just off it, or the reasonably good through routes ie B&F to Aldersley via mainline. I suspect there is a fair bit of the BCN you have never seen. During our various BCN trips in the late 60s I can’t recall ever encountering a working boat. The fact that you didn't see any commercial traffic during some late 1960's holiday jaunts is neither here nor there, and certainly does not validate your incorrect assumption that there wasn't any. As for your remark regarding - " I suspect there is a fair bit of the BCN you have never seen." - all I can say is that I probably saw a damn sight more of it, in the early 1970's, than you ever have when I was working for Stevens and Keay at the time the North Sea gas mains were being laid under the towpath. To provide enough boats for all the contractors gangs, we had to locate and pump up the best out of the vast selection of abandoned Joeys that lay around all over the BCN back then, then tow them to Walsall for repair/docking before taking them out to the pipe laying gangs. With one exception, namely Willow Wren's use of the North Stratford to and from Bournville after BW guaranteed them sufficient depth from Lapworth to Kings Norton, in preference to getting there via the long way round, and hence more time and work, down Deritend then up Digbeth and the old 13, every one of the traffics I've mentioned was either on what is nowadays called the 'BCN', or includes the use of some of it. How do you think the coal from around Cannock, loaded in Anglesey Basin/Hendesford Arm, got where it was going after ended up in boats ? By way of helping toward a little better understanding of your very evident confusion, could you possibly explain just what you meant by - " the mainline " ( there are in fact two of them), and " the B & F to Aldersley via mainline " ?
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Post by Telemachus on Mar 1, 2018 8:08:16 GMT
We are talking about the late 60s, 1968 in fact. Most of that stuff you are wittering on about is not BCN (do you really think Bournville is on the BCN?), or on the mainline or just off it, or the reasonably good through routes ie B&F to Aldersley via mainline. I suspect there is a fair bit of the BCN you have never seen. During our various BCN trips in the late 60s I can’t recall ever encountering a working boat. The fact that you didn't see any commercial traffic during some late 1960's holiday jaunts is neither here nor there, and certainly does not validate your incorrect assumption that there wasn't any. As for your remark regarding - " I suspect there is a fair bit of the BCN you have never seen." - all I can say is that I probably saw a damn sight more of it, in the early 1970's, than you ever have when I was working for Stevens and Keay at the time the North Sea gas mains were being laid under the towpath. To provide enough boats for all the contractors gangs, we had to locate and pump up the best out of the vast selection of abandoned Joeys that lay around all over the BCN back then, then tow them to Walsall for repair/docking before taking them out to the pipe laying gangs. With one exception, namely Willow Wren's use of the North Stratford to and from Bournville after BW guaranteed them sufficient depth from Lapworth to Kings Norton, in preference to getting there via the long way round, and hence more time and work, down Deritend then up Digbeth and the old 13, every one of the traffics I've mentioned was either on what is nowadays called the 'BCN', or includes the use of some of it. How do you think the coal from around Cannock, loaded in Anglesey Basin/Hendesford Arm, got where it was going after ended up in boats ? By way of helping toward a little better understanding of your very evident confusion, could you possibly explain just what you meant by - " the mainline " ( there are in fact two of them), and " the B & F to Aldersley via mainline " ? Yes there are 2 mainlines, however in the late 60s the old mainline was in very poor condition. Any professional boatman with 1/2 braincell wishing to get from Wolverhampton to Birmingham would take the only mainline in reasonable condition, the new mainline. I thought this point was obvious but since it seems your actual experience of the BCN is minimal, I suppose it wasn’t. Sorry for not spelling it out.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 1, 2018 8:51:26 GMT
The fact that you didn't see any commercial traffic during some late 1960's holiday jaunts is neither here nor there, and certainly does not validate your incorrect assumption that there wasn't any. As for your remark regarding - " I suspect there is a fair bit of the BCN you have never seen." - all I can say is that I probably saw a damn sight more of it, in the early 1970's, than you ever have when I was working for Stevens and Keay at the time the North Sea gas mains were being laid under the towpath. To provide enough boats for all the contractors gangs, we had to locate and pump up the best out of the vast selection of abandoned Joeys that lay around all over the BCN back then, then tow them to Walsall for repair/docking before taking them out to the pipe laying gangs. With one exception, namely Willow Wren's use of the North Stratford to and from Bournville after BW guaranteed them sufficient depth from Lapworth to Kings Norton, in preference to getting there via the long way round, and hence more time and work, down Deritend then up Digbeth and the old 13, every one of the traffics I've mentioned was either on what is nowadays called the 'BCN', or includes the use of some of it. How do you think the coal from around Cannock, loaded in Anglesey Basin/Hendesford Arm, got where it was going after ended up in boats ? By way of helping toward a little better understanding of your very evident confusion, could you possibly explain just what you meant by - " the mainline " ( there are in fact two of them), and " the B & F to Aldersley via mainline " ? Yes there are 2 mainlines, however in the late 60s the old mainline was in very poor condition. Any professional boatman with 1/2 braincell wishing to get from Wolverhampton to Birmingham would take the only mainline in reasonable condition, the new mainline. I thought this point was obvious but since it seems your actual experience of the BCN is minimal, I suppose it wasn’t. Sorry for not spelling it out. Taken together with all your literary bowel movements from last week about the hordes of pleasure boaters who spend all their time endlessly going up and down Curdworth, I think you've now provided ample material for others to make a sound, reasoned judgement on the extent to which you're talking through your backside. Thank you for your generous co-operation !
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2018 8:55:09 GMT
Wonder if anyone can remember back to the 80s, coventry basin looks empty on the specials album cover shot www.rock-explosion.com/images/Specials_photo.jpgBut if it was empty there, where did they stop the water, nearest lock is atherstone top lock, did they shut off the canal somewhere else, basin entrance maybe?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 1, 2018 9:18:50 GMT
Wonder if anyone can remember back to the 80s, coventry basin looks empty on the specials album cover shot www.rock-explosion.com/images/Specials_photo.jpgBut if it was empty there, where did they stop the water, nearest lock is atherstone top lock, did they shut off the canal somewhere else, basin entrance maybe? It's a long time since I last saw Coventry Basin, but I think there were at one time some stop gates by the bridge in the narrows at the entrance, . . if my memory is playing tricks and there weren't any, there would at the very least be some stop-plank grooves there.
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Post by Telemachus on Mar 1, 2018 9:22:17 GMT
Yes there are 2 mainlines, however in the late 60s the old mainline was in very poor condition. Any professional boatman with 1/2 braincell wishing to get from Wolverhampton to Birmingham would take the only mainline in reasonable condition, the new mainline. I thought this point was obvious but since it seems your actual experience of the BCN is minimal, I suppose it wasn’t. Sorry for not spelling it out. Taken together with all your literary bowel movements from last week about the hordes of pleasure boaters who spend all their time endlessly going up and down Curdworth, I think you've now provided ample material for others to make a sound, reasoned judgement on the extent to which you're talking through your backside. Thank you for your generous co-operation ! Yes i thought so. You never actually boated on the BCN at all, did you! Well maybe once, when you were the cabin boy perhaps?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 1, 2018 10:09:41 GMT
The fact that you didn't see any commercial traffic during some late 1960's holiday jaunts is neither here nor there, and certainly does not validate your incorrect assumption that there wasn't any. As for your remark regarding - " I suspect there is a fair bit of the BCN you have never seen." - all I can say is that I probably saw a damn sight more of it, in the early 1970's, than you ever have when I was working for Stevens and Keay at the time the North Sea gas mains were being laid under the towpath. To provide enough boats for all the contractors gangs, we had to locate and pump up the best out of the vast selection of abandoned Joeys that lay around all over the BCN back then, then tow them to Walsall for repair/docking before taking them out to the pipe laying gangs. With one exception, namely Willow Wren's use of the North Stratford to and from Bournville after BW guaranteed them sufficient depth from Lapworth to Kings Norton, in preference to getting there via the long way round, and hence more time and work, down Deritend then up Digbeth and the old 13, every one of the traffics I've mentioned was either on what is nowadays called the 'BCN', or includes the use of some of it. How do you think the coal from around Cannock, loaded in Anglesey Basin/Hendesford Arm, got where it was going after ended up in boats ? By way of helping toward a little better understanding of your very evident confusion, could you possibly explain just what you meant by - " the mainline " ( there are in fact two of them), and " the B & F to Aldersley via mainline " ? Yes there are 2 mainlines, however in the late 60s the old mainline was in very poor condition. Any professional boatman with 1/2 braincell wishing to get from Wolverhampton to Birmingham would take the only mainline in reasonable condition, the new mainline.Anyone, irrespective of their professionalism or brain cell quota, would find that getting from Wolverhampton to Birmingham on 'only' the 'new mainline' is in fact quite impossible. Why, you may ask, . . . well, it starts at the top of Factory 3 at Tipton and runs from there into Birmingham. There's no choice of 'mainline' at the top of Wolverhampton, . . it's the 'old' one, or nothing ! Any thoughts or ideas yet about what you had in mind earlier when you mentioned " the B & F to Aldersley " ?
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Post by Telemachus on Mar 1, 2018 10:22:29 GMT
Gosh you are thick. Where there is a choice, one would take the new mainline. Where there is no choice, well there is no choice. I expect you are one of those old codgers who has every cupboard in the house/boat labelled to avoid you looking in the bathroom for the coffee jar! But for most people, such things are obvious and don’t need to be written down. From Tipton to Wolverhampton it is neither the new mainline nor the old mainline, just the mainline. As you would know if you’d ever been there!
Not sure why you are fixated on the route from B&F to Aldersley. Since you have clearly never been there, I’ll explain that B&F is not the local DIY store, it is the Birmingham and Fazeley (part of the BCN) and to get to Aldersley from say Fazeley one would go to Salford Jn having ascended Curdworth and Minworth, take second left, up Aston locks, turn right, up farmer’s bridge, onto the mainline, then straight on til Aldersley, not forgetting to stop for Tipton locks and the 21. Sorry if you thought the B&F went to Aldersley but I suppose since you have never been there, you can’t be expected to know.
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Post by brummieboy on Mar 3, 2018 13:40:28 GMT
It has been, to quote the current idiom, an 'interesting journey', to see the development of Birmingham's central canals from the late60's through to the present day. The 'atmospheric' Gas Street, Oozells Loop and Cambrian Wharf were havens of peace from which one could easily explore the back streets of Broad Street and the Jewellery Quarter with their traditional pubs, surprisingly well patronised despite there being little local residences.
The redevelopment of the Broad Street and Jewellery Quarter areas have certainly been beneficial to the Council, and the canals have become a magnet for boaters, and not necessarily the best of sorts. The residential developments have attracted many critics of our heritage, and the improved facilities are maybe not as attractive to those of us who remember boating and Birmingham as it was.
There are parts of the B.C.N. which have managed to combine development with the retention of some of the old atmosphere, but many of the 'Waterworld' boaters do not look for the tranquillity this offers. The merits of one route over another are very much for personal consideration and the objective required; access or interest. Working boatmen only had one aim, and that was speed of transit, and very little was allowed to hinder their progress. They knew time was money, and took very little notice of the aesthetics of their surroundings.
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