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Post by cygnus on Apr 26, 2018 8:37:35 GMT
I am on a Facebook Group called the Wide Boat Action Group. It was set up when the C & RT announced the new licence fee increases for boats over narrowboat width. This query though is about a subject that has come up and not directly connected with the licence fee increase. I am hoping Tony Dunkerley and Nigel Moore will chip in. Firstly, what is the difference between a Canal and a Navigation? In particular regarding licensing for boats. There are folk claiming that they have been paying for a Rivers Only licence on "Navigations" in my area, and have suggested that I am also entitled to do so, being on the Aire & Calder Navigation at Goole. I queried this with the C&RT and they say I have to have a full Canals & Rivers Licence. Is this correct? I think it is, but don't know for sure. I have looked at the C&RT Terms and Conditions specifically Rivers Only Licences and Navigations, and it seems to confirm that being on the Aire & Calder Navigation, or the Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation that I do require a full licence. However other people are adamant that the C&RT are misleading people on this.
Joe
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 26, 2018 8:45:49 GMT
I am on a Facebook Group called the Wide Boat Action Group. It was set up when the C & RT announced the new licence fee increases for boats over narrowboat width. This query though is about a subject that has come up and not directly connected with the licence fee increase. I am hoping Tony Dunkerley and Nigel Moore will chip in. Firstly, what is the difference between a Canal and a Navigation? In particular regarding licensing for boats. There are folk claiming that they have been paying for a Rivers Only licence on "Navigations" in my area, and have suggested that I am also entitled to do so, being on the Aire & Calder Navigation at Goole. I queried this with the C&RT and they say I have to have a full Canals & Rivers Licence. Is this correct? I think it is, but don't know for sure. I have looked at the C&RT Terms and Conditions specifically Rivers Only Licences and Navigations, and it seems to confirm that being on the Aire & Calder Navigation, or the Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation that I do require a full licence. However other people are adamant that the C&RT are misleading people on this. Joe As I understand it, it depends on whether there is a Public Right of Navigation (PRN) on the waterway. Typically rivers have long histories of PRN. Canals don't. I suppose it gets a bit complex when you have canalised bits and natural river bits mixed in the same waterway (thinking for example of the Beeston cut).
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Post by Gone on Apr 26, 2018 9:05:31 GMT
Isnβt that a part canal/part river navigation? Do you venture onto the canal bits? According to CRT the βFerrybridge-Goole stretch is entirely man-made.β. So that may be you answer.
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Post by kris on Apr 26, 2018 9:15:51 GMT
I am on a Facebook Group called the Wide Boat Action Group. It was set up when the C & RT announced the new licence fee increases for boats over narrowboat width. This query though is about a subject that has come up and not directly connected with the licence fee increase. I am hoping Tony Dunkerley and Nigel Moore will chip in. Firstly, what is the difference between a Canal and a Navigation? In particular regarding licensing for boats. There are folk claiming that they have been paying for a Rivers Only licence on "Navigations" in my area, and have suggested that I am also entitled to do so, being on the Aire & Calder Navigation at Goole. I queried this with the C&RT and they say I have to have a full Canals & Rivers Licence. Is this correct? I think it is, but don't know for sure. I have looked at the C&RT Terms and Conditions specifically Rivers Only Licences and Navigations, and it seems to confirm that being on the Aire & Calder Navigation, or the Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation that I do require a full licence. However other people are adamant that the C&RT are misleading people on this. Joe You do definately need a full canal liscence for the waterways you mention. Although the "river only" liscence that isn't a liscence allows three days to transit them if your travelling from the Trent to the Ouse. I'm sure Tony or Nigel will be along to tell us when they lost the prn status that they used to have. This is from personal experience I spent most of last year on the said waterways.
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Post by cygnus on Apr 26, 2018 9:17:20 GMT
Agreed. We are on the Aire & Calder Navigation. It runs from the River Ouse at Goole to Leeds, and a branch off to Wakefield. There are river stretches along the way,and at each end. There lies the confusion I think. That is why I posed the question. There are people on these Navigations stating I too should be paying for a Rivers Only licence, yet C&RT say no. I would have accepted that as gospel once upon a time, but recently I have lost all trust, and now question everything. It's a shame I know.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 26, 2018 11:16:59 GMT
CRT sending their Hit Squad to Goole as we speaketh to knobble your mates with 'River Only Licences'. They'd better get locked down onto the Ooze and run away!
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 26, 2018 11:23:55 GMT
I am on a Facebook Group called the Wide Boat Action Group. It was set up when the C & RT announced the new licence fee increases for boats over narrowboat width. This query though is about a subject that has come up and not directly connected with the licence fee increase. I am hoping Tony Dunkerley and Nigel Moore will chip in. Firstly, what is the difference between a Canal and a Navigation? In particular regarding licensing for boats. There are folk claiming that they have been paying for a Rivers Only licence on "Navigations" in my area, and have suggested that I am also entitled to do so, being on the Aire & Calder Navigation at Goole. I queried this with the C&RT and they say I have to have a full Canals & Rivers Licence. Is this correct? I think it is, but don't know for sure. I have looked at the C&RT Terms and Conditions specifically Rivers Only Licences and Navigations, and it seems to confirm that being on the Aire & Calder Navigation, or the Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation that I do require a full licence. However other people are adamant that the C&RT are misleading people on this. Joe Anyway, "wide boat action group" sounds a bit like some sort of slimming club. For clarity I would perhaps rename it "fat boat activity group"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2018 11:30:06 GMT
What happens though if Dunkerley comes along and says what the cr&t say is not true, do you not pay the full licence like these others, risk a section 8 and lose your boat?
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Post by kris on Apr 26, 2018 11:43:59 GMT
What happens though if Dunkerley comes along and says what the cr&t say is not true, do you not pay the full licence like these others, risk a section 8 and lose your boat? What are you on about?
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Post by cygnus on Apr 26, 2018 11:46:41 GMT
CRT sending their Hit Squad to Goole as we speaketh to knobble your mates with 'River Only Licences'. They'd better get locked down onto the Ooze and run away! I never said where they were moored Mr. Fox if you notice. π
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 26, 2018 11:53:26 GMT
I think the point is that Dunkers and Nige have one view which of course they consider to be gospel. The only problem is that nearly everybody else that matters, disagrees with them at least to some extent!
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Post by cygnus on Apr 26, 2018 11:56:34 GMT
What happens though if Dunkerley comes along and says what the cr&t say is not true, do you not pay the full licence like these others, risk a section 8 and lose your boat? I would challenge C&RT with more conviction. I would renew my licence when due. I am fairly certain, not totally, that I am currently paying for the appropriate licence. π€
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Post by cygnus on Apr 26, 2018 12:09:35 GMT
I think the point is that Dunkers and Nige have one view which of course they consider to be gospel. The only problem is that nearly everybody else that matters, disagrees with them at least to some extent! Yes I see what you are saying, but doesn't everyone ask for advice from people who are more knowledgeable about a particular subject ? The trick is knowing whether the advice received is good, or not. Or somewhere in between.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2018 13:35:08 GMT
What happens though if Dunkerley comes along and says what the cr&t say is not true, do you not pay the full licence like these others, risk a section 8 and lose your boat? What are you on about? Tony comes along and says you do not need a full licence, only a river licence as per the other people, so cygnus cancels his canal and river licence and purchases just a rivers licence thinking he is ok. Crt say no thats not right you need to have a full canal and river licence, blah blah, take him to court and get a court order to take boat away. Happy?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 26, 2018 14:04:25 GMT
I am on a Facebook Group called the Wide Boat Action Group. It was set up when the C & RT announced the new licence fee increases for boats over narrowboat width. This query though is about a subject that has come up and not directly connected with the licence fee increase. I am hoping Tony Dunkerley and Nigel Moore will chip in. Firstly, what is the difference between a Canal and a Navigation? In particular regarding licensing for boats. There are folk claiming that they have been paying for a Rivers Only licence on "Navigations" in my area, and have suggested that I am also entitled to do so, being on the Aire & Calder Navigation at Goole. I queried this with the C&RT and they say I have to have a full Canals & Rivers Licence. Is this correct? I think it is, but don't know for sure. I have looked at the C&RT Terms and Conditions specifically Rivers Only Licences and Navigations, and it seems to confirm that being on the Aire & Calder Navigation, or the Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation that I do require a full licence. However other people are adamant that the C&RT are misleading people on this. Joe Time pressures from other things prevent me from going into this except very briefly at the moment, Joe, but your query does in fact lead to a few issues which are long overdue for an airing, . . . some to an extent are quite long standing, but there are others more recent including the effects on Navigation and Harbour Authority boundaries which could arise out of the development of new ABP terminal facilities at Dog and Duck. In broad, practical terms the difference between a 'canal' and a 'navigation' is that a canal is entirely artificial and man-made, whereas navigations are created via the process of making a natural river navigable through the construction of canal sections and/or lockcuts and locks to bypass the weirs that are put in place to increase the river depth for navigation. In legislative terms, however, the distinction that C&RT make, and work to, between canals and navigations has it's origins in the 1971 British Waterways Act, which defines and lists a number of 'navigations' as 'river waterways' in Schedule 1 to the Act. A statutory PRN existed on the canals from their beginning, written into the enabling Acts as a condition of empowering the new canal companies to build their waterways, as did the pre-existing PRN on river navigations, being extended to encompass the improvements needed to make them navigable, or deepen already navigable rivers, as a condition of the legislation which authorized those improvements. A PRN applicable to natural rivers, will generally be more ancient and originate from sources such as decrees of reigning monarchs or common law. The 1968 Transport Act extinguished the statutory PRN on all the artificial/man-made canals (simultaneously with the obligation to maintain in a navigable condition via annulment of S.17 of the 1873 Regulation of Railways Act) and on, as since then generally accepted, the BWB controlled canal and river navigations that were not subsequently listed in Schedule 1 of the 1971 BW Act, such as the Aire & Calder from Leeds to Bank Dole Lock, Sheffield & South Yorkshire (river Don sections) and the Calder & Hebble. Whether or not these navigations should have been included in the 1971 Act's list of 'river waterways' is another question, but whatever the answer to that question is, the chances of rectifying any error that was made and getting them included in the Schedule now must be pretty slim. As kris says there is a left over concession from BW days allowing boats "navigating between the River Trent and River Ouse via the Stainforth & Keadby Canal, Aire & Calder Navigation and the Selby Canal" with a Pleasure Boat Certificate (C&RT's mythical 'Rivers only Licence), ie. registered for use on only the river waterways specified/listed under the 1971 Act, to do so FoC within a period of up to 72 hours. As far as I'm aware this is, and never has been, anything more than a concession and could therefore be withdrawn at any time should C&RT decide so to do. Whilst the concession remains in place and in the current form of words, however, it could be argued that any boat, especially boats based in adjoining non-C&RT waters, spending up to 72 hours, for any purpose, on any part of any or all of the three nominated waterways is simply making fair use of it.
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