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Post by NigelMoore on Jun 21, 2018 13:18:12 GMT
Perfectly understandable -legislation is full of such traps for the unwary!
As to powers to charge being an incident of ownership, that is their prime argument for all "extra-curricular" activities they indulge in. The fact is, however, that such land as they do hold on trust can only be dealt with for the specific purposes of their Acts, and limited to the powers to deal with it as conferred by those Acts [including the original enabling Acts]. They do NOT have the freedom to deal with 'their' property as is enjoyed by natural persons.
Not that it makes much difference to the provision of offside facilities, which even the enabling Acts granted them power to develop and charge for; s.43 cuts in in respect of those, insofar as it removes the prior legislated ceilings on what they could charge for those, and even removes the need [as in the prior British Transport Commission Acts] for the charges and conditions to be reasonable!
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olive
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Post by olive on Jun 21, 2018 14:42:35 GMT
Perfectly understandable -legislation is full of such traps for the unwary! As to powers to charge being an incident of ownership, that is their prime argument for all "extra-curricular" activities they indulge in. The fact is, however, that such land as they do hold on trust can only be dealt with for the specific purposes of their Acts, and limited to the powers to deal with it as conferred by those Acts [including the original enabling Acts]. They do NOT have the freedom to deal with 'their' property as is enjoyed by natural persons. Not that it makes much difference to the provision of offside facilities, which even the enabling Acts granted them power to develop and charge for; s.43 cuts in in respect of those, insofar as it removes the prior legislated ceilings on what they could charge for those, and even removes the need [as in the prior British Transport Commission Acts] for the charges and conditions to be reasonable! I was wondering where they get the powers to sell off all the canalside property so I've just had a look at the 'powers' in their articles. Under 3.3, all charges they make for services and facilities ARE required to be reasonable! so even though s43 no longer requires it if them, it looks like they require it of themselves! The document Allan linked about planning on the K and A is interesting - i didn't realise online moorings count as permitted development. Why are the CRT limited to powers conferred by Acts in deciding what they can do?
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Post by NigelMoore on Jun 21, 2018 15:14:12 GMT
S.43 did not require it of them; s.43 abolished the prior BTC Act that required their charges etc to be reasonable. True, later more general public Acts have intervened over the course of decades, and the free reign granted under s.43 inevitably has to be curtailed by that later legislation [as reflected in the company's Articles]. On my understanding, s.43 is thus utterly irrelevant in this day and age, except insofar as it abolished all previous strictures upon the terms offered for the services for which they were already entitled to charge.
Non-residential/non-commercial moorings per se, do not require planning consent because they are considered an integral element of the natural use of canals [as argued by Nigel Johnson in the Ladies Bridge PINS Appeal]. No change of use = no planning consent needed. Arguably, though, any significant building elements more than just installing moorings rings etc, might engage planning law [for example if a sizeable landing stage; high posts, lighting, sheds etc were involved, that could potentially trigger Council interest]. Residential or commercial use of boats on a mooring would, however, entail a change of use, hence the need for planning consent for those.
CaRT are limited to what they can do by reason of the rules governing creatures of statute [though I am sure Johnson intended to try [unavailingly] bypassing that through the privatisation device]. The classic case is that of Stourbridge v Wheeley - though that is but one of many such cases from the 19thC to the present. In that case, the canal company sought to impose charges for use of their property [the canal] solely on the grounds that it belonged to them, thus [on their argument] giving them the right, as landowners, to charge for using it. The court determined otherwise, noting that as a creature of statute, they did not possess the common law rights of a natural person, but were constrained by the terms of their statutes. If - as in their case - the statute provided only for charges to be levied for passing through locks, then no right existed to charge boats that did not use those locks.
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Post by NigelMoore on Jun 21, 2018 15:19:57 GMT
I was wondering where they get the powers to sell off all the canalside property . . . The answer to that depends upon whether the canalside property is integral to the 'track', i.e. that which has been ostensibly placed in Trust for the nation, or whether it is part of their 'investment portfolio'. They can do what they like with their investment properties, but cannot dispose of anything belonging to the Waterways Infrastructure Trust. The loophole in the latter case is that they can apply to the Secretary of State for permission to flog off bits to developers, and sadly that option has been exercised all too often.
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olive
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Post by olive on Jun 21, 2018 18:10:48 GMT
Ah. The 'creature of statute' idea's one i'm still struggling to get my head arund - I was under the impression a CofS was one that was made by a statute - i.e. 'there shall be a public corporation called the British Waterways Board' or similar in an Act. I must have that wrong? The selling off of the property is a terrible and irreversible and shortsighted shame
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 18:25:16 GMT
Selling off property is an interesting topic really. I don't really see a problem as apart from the wind tunnel effect it does not really cause problems for people using boats. Obviously there is a building heritage thing but that goes on everywhere not just by canals.
Selling off (or transferring) parts of the actual waterway itself as happened near me at Bromley by Bow on the Lea navigation in order for a developer to marginally increase their land area and install new piling is definitely getting dodgy.
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Post by NigelMoore on Jun 21, 2018 19:05:57 GMT
Ah. The 'creature of statute' idea's one i'm still struggling to get my head arund - I was under the impression a CofS was one that was made by a statute - i.e. 'there shall be a public corporation called the British Waterways Board' or similar in an Act. I must have that wrong? I cannot see that you have anything wrong. Everything that CaRT inherited from BW was tied to the preceding legislation establishing numerous ‘creatures of statute’ in the form of private enterprises authorised by Parliament to control to various extents natural [but to be improved] and wholly artificial, inland navigations. Most – but not all – of those were nationalised under the British Transport Act of 1947, all to remain subject to the terms of their original [and as amended] Statutory Acts. As the former BW Head of Legal, Nigel Johnson acknowledged in an address to the Parliamentary Waterways Group, respecting the original enabling Acts [“ around 370 separate Acts of Parliament specifically relating to BW and its waterways”] dating from 1424 onwards – “ nearly all have some provisions that still have an effect today.” Pertinent to the statutory limitations topic, unless any of those Acts specifically authorised the levying of a charge for a specific service, that lacunae acted as a prohibition on the navigation authorities to charge for such a service. Contrary to the received wisdom of the BW/CaRT legal apologists, s.43 expressly excluded application of that section of the 1962 Act to all such “otherwise” prohibitory clauses. That exclusionary clause has been applied to CaRT in the amendation of the 1962 Act following the British Waterways Transfer of Functions Order 2012.
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Post by NigelMoore on Jun 21, 2018 19:14:05 GMT
Selling off property is an interesting topic really. I don't really see a problem as apart from the wind tunnel effect it does not really cause problems for people using boats. Obviously there is a building heritage thing but that goes on everywhere not just by canals. Selling off (or transferring) parts of the actual waterway itself as happened near me at Bromley by Bow on the Lea navigation in order for a developer to marginally increase their land area and install new piling is definitely getting dodgy. It is worse than simply flogging off the bed of rivers and canals as exampled in the instance you refer to. If you have cruised through London you will have seen one particular abomination of a tower block actually extending over one of a pair of locks, to the effect that the nearest lock has become all but unusable. BW sold them the right to build over the lock in order that the developer could eke out every last square inch of space beyond their title boundaries. Same as the Lea situation you mentioned, though there there was no damage to an actual navigational structure, "just" an unwarranted narrowing of a public navigable river which neither CaRT nor the developer had any legal right to curtail. All such abuses and dispositions of the national assets take place without effective publicising and consultation, almost unilaterally at the stroke of the pen of a single individual.
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Post by JohnV on Jun 22, 2018 6:19:17 GMT
I hope this isn't considered off topic as it does illustrate similar problems on another waterway ..... if it is, I apologise Following the massive flooding in Hull in June 2007 there has been massive piling and general repairs on the River Hull and associated drains. All understandable and laudable, however the massive piling being used is (where piling is occurring on both banks) reducing the width of the river by 4 metres. Although this does not restrict the navigable width of the river it is already causing a major problem for the tanker barges using this waterway. They are so long that on the tight bends they cannot help but scrape the piling. SAM_1295 by mudlarker2, on Flickr
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 17:32:56 GMT
This is the latest bullshit from the calamity and River Trust regarding a recent 14 day no return for a month sign in berkhamsted
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 17:56:40 GMT
Selling off property is an interesting topic really. I don't really see a problem as apart from the wind tunnel effect it does not really cause problems for people using boats. Obviously there is a building heritage thing but that goes on everywhere not just by canals. Selling off (or transferring) parts of the actual waterway itself as happened near me at Bromley by Bow on the Lea navigation in order for a developer to marginally increase their land area and install new piling is definitely getting dodgy. It is worse than simply flogging off the bed of rivers and canals as exampled in the instance you refer to. If you have cruised through London you will have seen one particular abomination of a tower block actually extending over one of a pair of locks, to the effect that the nearest lock has become all but unusable. BW sold them the right to build over the lock in order that the developer could eke out every last square inch of space beyond their title boundaries. Same as the Lea situation you mentioned, though there there was no damage to an actual navigational structure, "just" an unwarranted narrowing of a public navigable river which neither CaRT nor the developer had any legal right to curtail. All such abuses and dispositions of the national assets take place without effective publicising and consultation, almost unilaterally at the stroke of the pen of a single individual. I came through London yesterday west to east and not quite sure which lock you are referring to. I am guessing you mean Camden. Or Kentish town lock. All locks were usable. There is a (hopefully) temporary towpath closure between Kentish town lock and the middle of the three but that is not a problem for a "proper boater". Other than that I can't think of any problems other than the obvious wind tunnel issues which always happen with urban development by canals.
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Post by NigelMoore on Jun 22, 2018 18:55:02 GMT
I came through London yesterday west to east and not quite sure which lock you are referring to. I am guessing you mean Camden. Or Kentish town lock. All locks were usable. There is a (hopefully) temporary towpath closure between Kentish town lock and the middle of the three but that is not a problem for a "proper boater". Other than that I can't think of any problems other than the obvious wind tunnel issues which always happen with urban development by canals. No, from memory I cannot be certain, but a quick look at google earth suggests City Road Lock. Once a double lock, now only one chamber is operable, so it is a one-way system where it once was a two-way. I didn't say it was a problem, "merely" (!!!) that an entire lock chamber was rendered inoperable by extension of a building too close to it. The fact that there remains an operable lock alongside is beside the point.
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Post by bargemast on Jun 22, 2018 19:12:43 GMT
It is worse than simply flogging off the bed of rivers and canals as exampled in the instance you refer to. If you have cruised through London you will have seen one particular abomination of a tower block actually extending over one of a pair of locks, to the effect that the nearest lock has become all but unusable. BW sold them the right to build over the lock in order that the developer could eke out every last square inch of space beyond their title boundaries. Same as the Lea situation you mentioned, though there there was no damage to an actual navigational structure, "just" an unwarranted narrowing of a public navigable river which neither CaRT nor the developer had any legal right to curtail. All such abuses and dispositions of the national assets take place without effective publicising and consultation, almost unilaterally at the stroke of the pen of a single individual. I came through London yesterday west to east and not quite sure which lock you are referring to. I am guessing you mean Camden. Or Kentish town lock. All locks were usable. There is a (hopefully) temporary towpath closure between Kentish town lock and the middle of the three but that is not a problem for a "proper boater". Other than that I can't think of any problems other than the obvious wind tunnel issues which always happen with urban development by canals. I can understand that that isn't a problem for a "proper boater", but that makes me wonder how did you manage to get through ?
Peter.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 19:50:54 GMT
I came through London yesterday west to east and not quite sure which lock you are referring to. I am guessing you mean Camden. Or Kentish town lock. All locks were usable. There is a (hopefully) temporary towpath closure between Kentish town lock and the middle of the three but that is not a problem for a "proper boater". Other than that I can't think of any problems other than the obvious wind tunnel issues which always happen with urban development by canals. No, from memory I cannot be certain, but a quick look at google earth suggests City Road Lock. Once a double lock, now only one chamber is operable, so it is a one-way system where it once was a two-way. I didn't say it was a problem, "merely" (!!!) that an entire lock chamber was rendered inoperable by extension of a building too close to it. The fact that there remains an operable lock alongside is beside the point. Looking at the infrastructure (as one does) at city road lock I am pretty sure that the parallel lock was rendered inoperable quite a long time before the building beside it was constructed. And looking even more closely I would say that even if the parallel lock had not been taken out of service (gates removed and concrete barrier instaled at some point) that the lock would still actually be useable anyway. I'm happy to invite you aboard again for a trip to see what I mean if you fancy it. As long as you bring along your good lady.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2018 20:08:58 GMT
I came through London yesterday west to east and not quite sure which lock you are referring to. I am guessing you mean Camden. Or Kentish town lock. All locks were usable. There is a (hopefully) temporary towpath closure between Kentish town lock and the middle of the three but that is not a problem for a "proper boater". Other than that I can't think of any problems other than the obvious wind tunnel issues which always happen with urban development by canals. I can understand that that isn't a problem for a "proper boater", but that makes me wonder how did you manage to get through ?
Peter.
It may seem extraordinary but I don't need towpaths to go boating. It may surprise you to know that I do sometimes climb up lock gates to get off the boat and I bow haul the boat out of locks. I never fail to impress people.
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