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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 14:15:25 GMT
I'm thinking of converting one of my boats to wheel from tiller steering. This is to provide more deck space and comfortable seating. The wheel will be pretty close and in line with the rudder stock so I'm considering arranging it using toothed belt drive.
The question then arises what would be the best reduction ratio ? 5 turns lock to lock? So that would presumably be a 5:1 reduction. Or would a smaller ratio be OK. I've got 5 turns on the barge it seems okay that's a hydraulic setup.
Boat I want to convert is a 40x9ft steel canal launch. Reversible and low cost conversion so its not particularly serious.
I'm intending to eventually put an electric pod drive on the rudder hopefully with 360 rotation option which is why I am thinking about belts rather than a ram. And its so close it makes sense to do something direct
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Post by Gone on Oct 23, 2018 14:59:17 GMT
I'm thinking of converting one of my boats to wheel from tiller steering. This is to provide more deck space and comfortable seating. The wheel will be pretty close and in line with the rudder stock so I'm considering arranging it using toothed belt drive. The question then arises what would be the best reduction ratio ? 5 turns lock to lock? So that would presumably be a 5:1 reduction. Or would a smaller ratio be OK. I've got 5 turns on the barge it seems okay that's a hydraulic setup. Boat I want to convert is a 40x9ft steel canal launch. Reversible and low cost conversion so its not particularly serious. I'm intending to eventually put an electric pod drive on the rudder hopefully with 360 rotation option which is why I am thinking about belts rather than a ram. And its so close it makes sense to do something direct Assuming the tiller goes from left to right, then the shaft to the rudder does 0.5 turns lock to lock, so for 5 complete turns of your wheel for lock to lock would be a reduction ratio of 10:1 anyone disagree?? |
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Post by Gone on Oct 23, 2018 15:07:26 GMT
Moving the tiller whilst under high engine power needs a push (a guess) of 10kg and the tiller bar is say one meter long giving 100Nm of torque which is quite a lot for a simple toothed belt unless you have a very big pulley on the end of the tiller shaft. Sorry to sound negative, but I think wheel steering via toothed belt directly onto the rudder shaft is in danger of failing under a large load, which is when you most need it not to fail.
Still I am sure others have done this and can give you more positive advice than me
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Post by JohnV on Oct 23, 2018 15:13:16 GMT
There is a little known engineering law regarding boat steering, whatever the gearing system used, it is never a set number of turns from lock to lock .... For example On Sabina there are 12 turns from lock to lock (the rudder total angle is about 120 degrees. so one might be able to assume that the ratio was about 36:1 However, on the wrong lock and with a major obstacle approaching at great speed, the number of turns to get to the opposite lock is a minimum of 50 turns The higher the speed and the closer the problem the higher the ratio of the steering.  |
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Post by kris on Oct 23, 2018 16:19:24 GMT
One of the reasons I'm not a fan of wheel steering especially on canals (it's not so bad on rivers or the sea) is the number of turns lock to lock. Would it not be possible to set it up so it was direct? So basically one turn would be lock to lock. I'm sure there is a reason why it isn't done like this, but I'm wondering what it is.
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Post by Gone on Oct 23, 2018 16:26:46 GMT
One of the reasons I'm not a fan of wheel steering especially on canals (it's not so bad on rivers or the sea) is the number of turns lock to lock. Would it not be possible to set it up so it was direct? So basically one turn would be lock to lock. I'm sure there is a reason why it isn't done like this, but I'm wondering what it is. Because you would have to be much stronger than me if it was not power assisted with a normal size wheel. |
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Post by kris on Oct 23, 2018 16:40:29 GMT
One of the reasons I'm not a fan of wheel steering especially on canals (it's not so bad on rivers or the sea) is the number of turns lock to lock. Would it not be possible to set it up so it was direct? So basically one turn would be lock to lock. I'm sure there is a reason why it isn't done like this, but I'm wondering what it is. Because you would have to be much stronger than me if it was not power assisted with a normal size wheel. What even with hydraulics? |
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Post by Gone on Oct 23, 2018 16:58:20 GMT
Because you would have to be much stronger than me if it was not power assisted with a normal size wheel. What even with hydraulics? I was including hydraulics in power assisted |
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Post by kris on Oct 23, 2018 17:00:10 GMT
What even with hydraulics? I was including hydraulics in power assisted Oh okay. |
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Post by waldamar on Oct 23, 2018 18:53:35 GMT
I'm thinking of converting one of my boats to wheel from tiller steering. This is to provide more deck space and comfortable seating. The wheel will be pretty close and in line with the rudder stock so I'm considering arranging it using toothed belt drive. The question then arises what would be the best reduction ratio ? 5 turns lock to lock? So that would presumably be a 5:1 reduction. Or would a smaller ratio be OK. I've got 5 turns on the barge it seems okay that's a hydraulic setup. Boat I want to convert is a 40x9ft steel canal launch. Reversible and low cost conversion so its not particularly serious. I'm intending to eventually put an electric pod drive on the rudder hopefully with 360 rotation option which is why I am thinking about belts rather than a ram. And its so close it makes sense to do something direct Firstly I'm no expert.............. A Dutch sailing barge I viewed whilst in Holland had wheel/cable steering, she certainly would've been tiller originally. On the rudder a bar either side, s/steel cable running from one bar, through the stern, short distance to below the wheel, then small pully to take cable through 90 degrees to pulley mounted behind wheel, wire round wheel pulley then down to second small pulley, back to opposite bar. Simple and I guess the ratio [or required force] could be altered by length of bar and/or size of wheel pulley. Apparently after a 100km sail the cable had broken 50m from the mooring [boat was overdue maintenance] but made me think doubling up may be wise................................
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 20:08:47 GMT
Thanks for all the comments ! Another idea I had was to try fitting a linear actuator to the rudder stock and control steering using switches. How does stick steering work? I seem to remember peter bargemast having a barge with stick steering which looks rather interesting. I suppose the ideal option is going to be hydraulic steering. One of the things I wanted was to have a wider rudder arc because I would like to fit an electric pod motor in the rudder for slow speed manoeuvering. Yes the tiller does provide leverage and I do like a tiller but because of the layout of this particular boat a wheel arrangement would result in a considerably more useful rear deck area including the option to add a small canvas wheel shelter and a comfy heated seat. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 20:12:06 GMT
Maybe substituting the toothed belt for a duplex chain or similar might be more durable.
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Post by waldamar on Oct 23, 2018 20:20:24 GMT
Cable and pulleys make moving from vertical to horizontal easier maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 20:32:23 GMT
The rudder post is slightly off vertical like a traditional narrow boat so the rudder swings to the centre. My idea is to have a steering wheel on a column mounted at the same angle. Think of it being angled as the right hand fork of the letter "V" (its closer to vertical but gives an idea) so the steering wheel would be positioned sloping slightly towards the steerer but almost horizontal. Not vertical on a bulkhead. That way there would not be a direction change needed just a direct reduction gearing by belt/chain/gear. Gear would be nice but £££. The steering wheel will only be about 2ft forward of the rudder post. I'll get a photo tomorrow of the existing tiller.
Everything needs to be reversible so if it doesn't work just put back how it is now which does work.
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Post by peterboat on Oct 24, 2018 10:42:59 GMT
There is a little known engineering law regarding boat steering, whatever the gearing system used, it is never a set number of turns from lock to lock .... For example On Sabina there are 12 turns from lock to lock (the rudder total angle is about 120 degrees. so one might be able to assume that the ratio was about 36:1 However, on the wrong lock and with a major obstacle approaching at great speed, the number of turns to get to the opposite lock is a minimum of 50 turns The higher the speed and the closer the problem the higher the ratio of the steering. Some days it felt like a thousand to one John!!!! The steering for mine is 5turns lock to lock how it will be I will find out this year when I fit it
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