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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2019 8:29:45 GMT
Yes I did. High at the moment, but subsiding. Anyway the nice man at Selby lock said he didn’t advise going out in a narrowboat on Monday due to spring tides, best to wait until Wednesday, which is what we’ll do. Big Spring tides should not be, and are not, a barrier on their own to pleasure craft wanting to get upriver to Naburn from Selby. It is the combined effect of big tides AND significant amounts of fresh that give rise to the potentially very dangerous lack of headroom that can sometimes be encountered at Cawood Bridge. It is, in fact, entirely possible for the Cawood air draught to be severely limited by a combination of small (Neap) tides plus exceptional amounts of fresh after unusually heavy rainfall. The crucial factor in making the decision as to to whether or not passage is safe for pleasure craft is the TOTAL amount of water in the river at any given time, and NOT just the predicted tide height considered in isolation. The "big tide" specific advice you were given earlier this week was simply ill-informed nonsense from someone who either knows little or nothing of the river other than within sight of the lock he's in charge of, or who was working strictly to the instructions of some C&RT office chair polisher who doesn't fully understand the advice, warnings, and the river level/bridge clearance data they were given after the 2015 Cawood incident with the pleasure boater who nearly finished his day several inches shorter than when he started it. Had you made the Selby-Naburn trip on Monday 5 August and left Selby on the first of the flood, the running time to Cawood with a big tide under you and only slowed very slightly by the 2' - 2' 6'' of fresh in the river between Selby and Naburn would have seen you through Cawood with something in excess of 12' of headroom under the (closed) swingbridge, and even if you had been late away from Selby, or delayed for any reason on the way, there would still have been a little over 8' under the bridge at local (Cawood) High Water. You probably won't agree, but I think the inconvenience the volunteer at Wigan caused you fades into insignificance in comparison this ! Thanks for the advice Tony. I agree that the volockie thing was not a huge deal, I just see a trend where volockies are increasingly thinking they are in charge and very important. I want to flag the problem up to CRT whenever it occurs, rather than ignore and thus condone it. Yes I understand that it is the combination. But just so I understand, are these bridges actually an issue if there is good communication? Is it a “big deal” to get the bridge(s) swung? Anyway I realised that it would be a lot easier to have the 5 days in Aberdeen with the boat in Selby rather than Ripon so delaying until next week is a better idea - provided there isn’t another large dollop of rain in the meantime of course! That is just pot luck. Quite a small tide on Tuesday so it will be a bit dull - and very early in the morning, but we’ll cope! Oh and is the air draft at the bridges available on line anywhere?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Aug 7, 2019 8:53:32 GMT
Do they have fluvial flow meters around there? There is a useful one at Kingston on Thames which helps give an idea of the amount of extra water coming down from the catchment. www.thamestides.org.uk/nowHandy info. I don't know, . . there might be but they're not something I've ever been aware of or relied on. The only thing that was ever any concern for commercials on rivers, tidal or non-tidal, was briggage. Not enough headroom to get under fixed bridges on a non-tidal river in flood after prolonged heavy rain, or swingbridges on tidal rivers outside of bridge opening hours meant that you weren't going anywhere and so you weren't earning anything. Boatmen/bargemen were paid by way of tonnage rates AFTER whatever you were carrying was delivered, . . until then you didn't earn a bean !
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Post by Jim on Aug 7, 2019 9:30:35 GMT
Oh and is the air draft at the bridges available on line anywhere? Having seen a mug shot of you you need very little hair draft. Where's my coat...
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Post by JohnV on Aug 7, 2019 9:37:32 GMT
Big Spring tides should not be, and are not, a barrier on their own to pleasure craft wanting to get upriver to Naburn from Selby. It is the combined effect of big tides AND significant amounts of fresh that give rise to the potentially very dangerous lack of headroom that can sometimes be encountered at Cawood Bridge. It is, in fact, entirely possible for the Cawood air draught to be severely limited by a combination of small (Neap) tides plus exceptional amounts of fresh after unusually heavy rainfall. The crucial factor in making the decision as to to whether or not passage is safe for pleasure craft is the TOTAL amount of water in the river at any given time, and NOT just the predicted tide height considered in isolation. The "big tide" specific advice you were given earlier this week was simply ill-informed nonsense from someone who either knows little or nothing of the river other than within sight of the lock he's in charge of, or who was working strictly to the instructions of some C&RT office chair polisher who doesn't fully understand the advice, warnings, and the river level/bridge clearance data they were given after the 2015 Cawood incident with the pleasure boater who nearly finished his day several inches shorter than when he started it. Had you made the Selby-Naburn trip on Monday 5 August and left Selby on the first of the flood, the running time to Cawood with a big tide under you and only slowed very slightly by the 2' - 2' 6'' of fresh in the river between Selby and Naburn would have seen you through Cawood with something in excess of 12' of headroom under the (closed) swingbridge, and even if you had been late away from Selby, or delayed for any reason on the way, there would still have been a little over 8' under the bridge at local (Cawood) High Water. You probably won't agree, but I think the inconvenience the volunteer at Wigan caused you fades into insignificance in comparison this ! But just so I understand, are these bridges actually an issue if there is good communication? Is it a “big deal” to get the bridge(s) swung? it is worth bearing in mind that the bridges will not just immediately swing when you arrive ..... the road bridge is a main road but more importantly the rail bridge will only open when there is plenty of time between trains. This means in the unlikely event of needing the Selby bridges there is a good chance you will be swanning about for a while. The Cawood bridge I don't have enough experience to comment. Both times I went through I did not need it opened, the first was on the flood but remember Sabina is quick and I was coming from Goole and got under all the bridges, by the time I got to Cawood I was very early on the flood and there was 4 metres clearance (Sabina is 3.7 metres) and going down, as I said I left at low water with a bit of fresh and didn't meet the flood until well below there, from memory about 5 metres clearance. at Cawood there is a waiting pontoon both above and below the bridge ....... but except under ideal conditions, rather you than me (when I went through Selby there was also a problem with aligning the tracks after closing and they were having to arrange for a railway engineer to be on hand)
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2019 11:05:22 GMT
Looks wet and windy on Saturday so we’ll have to keep an eye on the fresh.
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Post by JohnV on Aug 7, 2019 11:35:42 GMT
The only way you are likely to need the bridges is if there is a combination of a lot of fresh and a big spring tide. They can be a bit scary even if there is plenty of headroom ....... the gap looks very small when you are approaching at warp speed and there is a lot of turbulence trying to make things difficult for you.
If there is little or no fresh there should be enough headroom under the Selby bridges ....... If you have a VHF then use it and talk to the bridge keepers, make sure they are aware of you and they will advise you clearances and also how long before they can swing if you actually need it but that is not likely unless conditions are bad ...... and in which case you shouldn't be there.
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2019 13:09:34 GMT
The only way you are likely to need the bridges is if there is a combination of a lot of fresh and a big spring tide. They can be a bit scary even if there is plenty of headroom ....... the gap looks very small when you are approaching at warp speed and there is a lot of turbulence trying to make things difficult for you. If there is little or no fresh there should be enough headroom under the Selby bridges ....... If you have a VHF then use it and talk to the bridge keepers, make sure they are aware of you and they will advise you clearances and also how long before they can swing if you actually need it but that is not likely unless conditions are bad ...... and in which case you shouldn't be there. Yes we have VHF. just going back to the rounding up thing and having just done it on Castleford cut in a strong tail wind, the wind is a big factor in a narrowboat, which has more windage and less draft at the bow, and less windage and more draft at the stern. All goes well until you have to use reverse / come to a near stop in the water across the wind, at which point the bow starts to pick up speed sideways down wind and it is quite difficult to continue the turn in restricted space. So I will be hoping for a headwind on the return trip!
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Post by TonyDunkley on Aug 7, 2019 20:26:38 GMT
Big Spring tides should not be, and are not, a barrier on their own to pleasure craft wanting to get upriver to Naburn from Selby. It is the combined effect of big tides AND significant amounts of fresh that give rise to the potentially very dangerous lack of headroom that can sometimes be encountered at Cawood Bridge. It is, in fact, entirely possible for the Cawood air draught to be severely limited by a combination of small (Neap) tides plus exceptional amounts of fresh after unusually heavy rainfall. The crucial factor in making the decision as to to whether or not passage is safe for pleasure craft is the TOTAL amount of water in the river at any given time, and NOT just the predicted tide height considered in isolation. The "big tide" specific advice you were given earlier this week was simply ill-informed nonsense from someone who either knows little or nothing of the river other than within sight of the lock he's in charge of, or who was working strictly to the instructions of some C&RT office chair polisher who doesn't fully understand the advice, warnings, and the river level/bridge clearance data they were given after the 2015 Cawood incident with the pleasure boater who nearly finished his day several inches shorter than when he started it. Had you made the Selby-Naburn trip on Monday 5 August and left Selby on the first of the flood, the running time to Cawood with a big tide under you and only slowed very slightly by the 2' - 2' 6'' of fresh in the river between Selby and Naburn would have seen you through Cawood with something in excess of 12' of headroom under the (closed) swingbridge, and even if you had been late away from Selby, or delayed for any reason on the way, there would still have been a little over 8' under the bridge at local (Cawood) High Water. You probably won't agree, but I think the inconvenience the volunteer at Wigan caused you fades into insignificance in comparison this ! Thanks for the advice Tony. I agree that the volockie thing was not a huge deal, I just see a trend where volockies are increasingly thinking they are in charge and very important. I want to flag the problem up to CRT whenever it occurs, rather than ignore and thus condone it. Yes I understand that it is the combination. But just so I understand, are these bridges actually an issue if there is good communication? Is it a “big deal” to get the bridge(s) swung? Anyway I realised that it would be a lot easier to have the 5 days in Aberdeen with the boat in Selby rather than Ripon so delaying until next week is a better idea - provided there isn’t another large dollop of rain in the meantime of course! That is just pot luck. Quite a small tide on Tuesday so it will be a bit dull - and very early in the morning, but we’ll cope! Oh and is the air draft at the bridges available on line anywhere? Thanks to being preoccupied with several other urgent matters today I haven't had time yet to respond to any of what Nick's asking here with the comprehensive answers the subject deserves, but I think I'll have some time to give over to this later tonight or tomorrow morning. Looking at the specific concerns about tidal rivers on here, and the questions that are being asked over on CWDF on the same subject without eliciting any useful or satisfactory answers, I think that the whole subject of canal based pleasure craft using tidal rivers, and the obvious anxiety that seems frequently to accompany that use, is crying out to be dealt with in some detail as a whole subject on it's own, covering everything from the right way to round-up in an a tide or current, the right and wrong ways of entering side-locks out of a strong tide, to passage planning, working out departure and anticipated arrival times, and where applicable, expected bridge clearances at various states of the tide en route. So what does everyone think ? Any suggestions as to the best way to go about this, . . perhaps we could even create something that will have disenchanted CWDF'ers coming over here for some reassurance which will make their holiday trips out on tidal rivers far more enjoyable and a lot less stressful.
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Post by JohnV on Aug 7, 2019 20:31:28 GMT
but but but ...... hasn't Naughty Cal covered all of this in her posts ?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Aug 7, 2019 20:39:38 GMT
but but but ...... hasn't Naughty Cal covered all of this in her posts ? She certainly has, John, . . the main problem being that all her so-called advice was invariably the sort of stuff that everyone was much better off without.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2019 20:58:45 GMT
I think its an interesting idea just don't forget to mention that thing about striking bridges with narrow boats and how it is inadvisable to do so around Blackfriars.
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Post by duncan on Aug 7, 2019 22:01:57 GMT
Thanks for the advice Tony. I agree that the volockie thing was not a huge deal, I just see a trend where volockies are increasingly thinking they are in charge and very important. I want to flag the problem up to CRT whenever it occurs, rather than ignore and thus condone it. Yes I understand that it is the combination. But just so I understand, are these bridges actually an issue if there is good communication? Is it a “big deal” to get the bridge(s) swung? Anyway I realised that it would be a lot easier to have the 5 days in Aberdeen with the boat in Selby rather than Ripon so delaying until next week is a better idea - provided there isn’t another large dollop of rain in the meantime of course! That is just pot luck. Quite a small tide on Tuesday so it will be a bit dull - and very early in the morning, but we’ll cope! Oh and is the air draft at the bridges available on line anywhere? Thanks to being preoccupied with several other urgent matters today I haven't had time yet to respond to any of what Nick's asking here with the comprehensive answers the subject deserves, but I think I'll have some time to give over to this later tonight or tomorrow morning. Looking at the specific concerns about tidal rivers on here, and the questions that are being asked over on CWDF on the same subject without eliciting any useful or satisfactory answers, I think that the whole subject of canal based pleasure craft using tidal rivers, and the obvious anxiety that seems frequently to accompany that use, is crying out to be dealt with in some detail as a whole subject on it's own, covering everything from the right way to round-up in an a tide or current, the right and wrong ways of entering side-locks out of a strong tide, to passage planning, working out departure and anticipated arrival times, and where applicable, expected bridge clearances at various states of the tide en route. So what does everyone think ? Any suggestions as to the best way to go about this, . . perhaps we could even create something that will have disenchanted CWDF'ers coming over here for some reassurance which will make their holiday trips out on tidal rivers far more enjoyable and a lot less stressful. Sounds like an excellent idea Tony. Rather than be afraid of rivers I think people need to respect them, and with prior knowledge of what to expect and the right times to use them, the experience should be safe and enjoyable. If something starts going wrong on a canal you can probably bring the boat to a full stop and have a think about it. In a tideway you do not have that luxury. When I regularly cruised the Ouse and Trent 40 odd years ago we had a friend who did the same trips in a small boat with a seagull outboard. Manys the time we would come across him tied to a bridge waiting for the tide to turn. The point is with knowledge and care these things are possible, whatever the boat.
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Post by JohnV on Aug 8, 2019 7:29:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 13:50:48 GMT
Thanks for the advice Tony. I agree that the volockie thing was not a huge deal, I just see a trend where volockies are increasingly thinking they are in charge and very important. I want to flag the problem up to CRT whenever it occurs, rather than ignore and thus condone it. Yes I understand that it is the combination. But just so I understand, are these bridges actually an issue if there is good communication? Is it a “big deal” to get the bridge(s) swung? Anyway I realised that it would be a lot easier to have the 5 days in Aberdeen with the boat in Selby rather than Ripon so delaying until next week is a better idea - provided there isn’t another large dollop of rain in the meantime of course! That is just pot luck. Quite a small tide on Tuesday so it will be a bit dull - and very early in the morning, but we’ll cope! Oh and is the air draft at the bridges available on line anywhere? Thanks to being preoccupied with several other urgent matters today I haven't had time yet to respond to any of what Nick's asking here with the comprehensive answers the subject deserves, but I think I'll have some time to give over to this later tonight or tomorrow morning. Looking at the specific concerns about tidal rivers on here, and the questions that are being asked over on CWDF on the same subject without eliciting any useful or satisfactory answers, I think that the whole subject of canal based pleasure craft using tidal rivers, and the obvious anxiety that seems frequently to accompany that use, is crying out to be dealt with in some detail as a whole subject on it's own, covering everything from the right way to round-up in an a tide or current, the right and wrong ways of entering side-locks out of a strong tide, to passage planning, working out departure and anticipated arrival times, and where applicable, expected bridge clearances at various states of the tide en route. So what does everyone think ? Any suggestions as to the best way to go about this, . . perhaps we could even create something that will have disenchanted CWDF'ers coming over here for some reassurance which will make their holiday trips out on tidal rivers far more enjoyable and a lot less stressful. It could be done in a FAQ type format. Which Delta could pin so it could be easily found, and not sink (no pun intended) to the bottom under all of Foxy's ramblings.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Aug 9, 2019 15:39:12 GMT
Thanks to being preoccupied with several other urgent matters today I haven't had time yet to respond to any of what Nick's asking here with the comprehensive answers the subject deserves, but I think I'll have some time to give over to this later tonight or tomorrow morning. Looking at the specific concerns about tidal rivers on here, and the questions that are being asked over on CWDF on the same subject without eliciting any useful or satisfactory answers, I think that the whole subject of canal based pleasure craft using tidal rivers, and the obvious anxiety that seems frequently to accompany that use, is crying out to be dealt with in some detail as a whole subject on it's own, covering everything from the right way to round-up in an a tide or current, the right and wrong ways of entering side-locks out of a strong tide, to passage planning, working out departure and anticipated arrival times, and where applicable, expected bridge clearances at various states of the tide en route. So what does everyone think ? Any suggestions as to the best way to go about this, . . perhaps we could even create something that will have disenchanted CWDF'ers coming over here for some reassurance which will make their holiday trips out on tidal rivers far more enjoyable and a lot less stressful. It could be done in a FAQ type format. Which Delta could pin so it could be easily found, and not sink (no pun intended) to the bottom under all of Foxy's ramblings. I've no idea what a "FAQ type format" is, but anything that would, or could, exclude anyone participating in any way won't cut it as far as I'm concerned. The purpose behind this is as stated in the post you've just quoted, . . everyone will be welcome to join in, and to benefit from so doing, . . without exception !
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