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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 8:09:38 GMT
The name is a bit of a worry. SHUN BIN shun /ʃʌn/ verb persistently avoid, ignore, or reject (someone or something) through antipathy or caution. bin /bɪn/ noun 1. a receptacle in which to deposit rubbish. Hmmmm This forum user not a happy bunny ! diysolarforum.com/threads/shunbin-battery-packs-12v-24v-100ah-and-up-a-complete-rip-off-avoid.1304/A good explanation from one of the posters on the thread "The answer is probably in the name SHUN-BIN. Loosely translated these cells are probably factory rejects , or from the BINs that were deemed unacceptable. Electronic (battery) manufacturers test their products and separate them into BIN #s. The good bins go into electric cars, street lights, UPS systems, power tools, laptops etc... The "just ok" bins get sold to reputable wholesalers/retailers as B grade. The "bad" bins are shunned (see what I did there into the junk pile. It's china, so even the junk pile finds its way into the market somehow." Sounds about right !
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 8:23:49 GMT
Wow! What a rip off... Well spotted magnetman. So theres a reason they are £400 cheaper than their nearest competitors. I would've been quite tempted by those.... That's another beer I owe you.
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Post by peterboat on Oct 28, 2020 11:08:14 GMT
Reading this thread again, I'm also being bitten by the Lithium bug. In fact I'm getting tempted to buy this year, rather than wait till my LA batteries expire. The advantages sound very appealing, particularly for winter boating when there is not much solar. The big one for me is that even on my canaline 38 with its 50 amp alternator, I could probably put in a day's worth of charge within 90 mins, even in winter, instead of having to run the engine for 3 or more hours for that last float part of the charge. And its no bother if you only charge to say 60% or 80% most days. I was going to wait a couple of years till my current batteries start to tire, but given that lithiums will last for the full length of time I'll have the boat either way, and given how much engine running time they will save me over the next two years, I'm thinking there are real benefits in buying now, rather than wait. I have 3 x 100ah batteries, so about 150ah that is usable charge. I could replace that with a single 200ah lithium battery- something like this: www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B088RM4W48/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3NTIDJ3MRQUN3&psc=1 Tont a friend of mine will sell you a drop in Valence it will be secondhand but low cycles, JohnV has them I have them and Kris has them, stick to more than 1 as 1 wont be enough. I have been using mine for over 3 years without issues so has John, you will need to leave the LAs in the system if they are ok it wont cause problems and will increase your capacity, John did this until his LAs expired. I have a full electric boat so its not a problem for me but Alternator charging has to be controlled ok?
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 28, 2020 11:46:19 GMT
China doesn't always charge a lot for it's products. Indeed, they gave the world Covid-19 for free.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 12:33:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 13:15:24 GMT
Reading this thread again, I'm also being bitten by the Lithium bug. In fact I'm getting tempted to buy this year, rather than wait till my LA batteries expire. The advantages sound very appealing, particularly for winter boating when there is not much solar. The big one for me is that even on my canaline 38 with its 50 amp alternator, I could probably put in a day's worth of charge within 90 mins, even in winter, instead of having to run the engine for 3 or more hours for that last float part of the charge. And its no bother if you only charge to say 60% or 80% most days. I was going to wait a couple of years till my current batteries start to tire, but given that lithiums will last for the full length of time I'll have the boat either way, and given how much engine running time they will save me over the next two years, I'm thinking there are real benefits in buying now, rather than wait. I have 3 x 100ah batteries, so about 150ah that is usable charge. I could replace that with a single 200ah lithium battery- something like this: www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B088RM4W48/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3NTIDJ3MRQUN3&psc=1 Tont a friend of mine will sell you a drop in Valence it will be secondhand but low cycles, JohnV has them I have them and Kris has them, stick to more than 1 as 1 wont be enough. I have been using mine for over 3 years without issues so has John, you will need to leave the LAs in the system if they are ok it wont cause problems and will increase your capacity, John did this until his LAs expired. I have a full electric boat so its not a problem for me but Alternator charging has to be controlled ok? Thanks Peter, those sound pretty good. How much does your friend charge for 200ah of batteries? Are you recommending that 200ah is not enough? On the point of leaving the existing batteries in place until they expire, in principle it sounds fine. I dont have enough technical know-how to be sure of any of this, but one thing that occurs to me is this: I'm trying to reduce the engine running time needed for recharging, and my aim is to use no more than 150ah of charge each day. So I don't really need the extra capacity that the LAs would add, and if I do use them, it will mean running the engine for longer each day to recharge them. I can see them getting into pretty bad shape by me not recharging them properly, as I'll be focused on charging the lithiums. Maybe if I use some clever wiring to ensure the lithium always get used first and charge first, so the LAs would sit unused and inert until the occasional day they were used. That could work....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 13:31:43 GMT
This seems to answer my queries about how lithium and LA would work together. I guess it boils down to whether you want a bit of contingency/backup charge, or you are happy to just rely on the capacity of the lithiums. In my case the lithium will be installed within the cabin so its kept well above zero degrees, and the LAs would remain in their current place in the engine bay
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 28, 2020 13:40:50 GMT
Tont a friend of mine will sell you a drop in Valence it will be secondhand but low cycles, JohnV has them I have them and Kris has them, stick to more than 1 as 1 wont be enough. I have been using mine for over 3 years without issues so has John, you will need to leave the LAs in the system if they are ok it wont cause problems and will increase your capacity, John did this until his LAs expired. I have a full electric boat so its not a problem for me but Alternator charging has to be controlled ok? Thanks Peter, those sound pretty good. How much does your friend charge for 200ah of batteries? Are you recommending that 200ah is not enough? On the point of leaving the existing batteries in place until they expire, in principle it sounds fine. I dont have enough technical know-how to be sure of any of this, but one thing that occurs to me is this: I'm trying to reduce the engine running time needed for recharging, and my aim is to use no more than 150ah of charge each day. So I don't really need the extra capacity that the LAs would add, and if I do use them, it will mean running the engine for longer each day to recharge them. I can see them getting into pretty bad shape by me not recharging them properly, as I'll be focused on charging the lithiums. Maybe if I use some clever wiring to ensure the lithium always get used first and charge first, so the LAs would sit unused and inert until the occasional day they were used. That could work.... Lithiums have a higher discharge voltage than LA, so with them in parallel the lithiums supply the current until their SoC gets down to around 20%
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 13:57:28 GMT
Thanks Peter, those sound pretty good. How much does your friend charge for 200ah of batteries? Are you recommending that 200ah is not enough? On the point of leaving the existing batteries in place until they expire, in principle it sounds fine. I dont have enough technical know-how to be sure of any of this, but one thing that occurs to me is this: I'm trying to reduce the engine running time needed for recharging, and my aim is to use no more than 150ah of charge each day. So I don't really need the extra capacity that the LAs would add, and if I do use them, it will mean running the engine for longer each day to recharge them. I can see them getting into pretty bad shape by me not recharging them properly, as I'll be focused on charging the lithiums. Maybe if I use some clever wiring to ensure the lithium always get used first and charge first, so the LAs would sit unused and inert until the occasional day they were used. That could work.... Lithiums have a higher discharge voltage than LA, so with them in parallel the lithiums supply the current until their SoC gets down to around 20% Thanks Nick- can I ask how the recharging would work with this setup? E.g. would the lithiums draw most of the incoming charge until they were almost full, and then allow the LAs to take most of charge? Or would they all recharge at an equal rate? Either way, it sounds like it all works fine in practice, as borne out by John V's experience. In my case I wouldn't use the LA's most days- but when I did, I would obviously have to accept that recharging everything would take longer than normal. I keep thinking it comes down to whether you want that extra capacity as an occasional fall- back, and to be honest I dont have enough experience to know. In the couple of months since I started cruising, I've managed ok with using 100-150ah of charge each day, and I do like the idea of a simpler set up with a single 200ah lithium battery... but I guess you never know.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 28, 2020 14:29:20 GMT
Lithiums have a higher discharge voltage than LA, so with them in parallel the lithiums supply the current until their SoC gets down to around 20% Thanks Nick- can I ask how the recharging would work with this setup? E.g. would the lithiums draw most of the incoming charge until they were almost full, and then allow the LAs to take most of charge? Or would they all recharge at an equal rate? Either way, it sounds like it all works fine in practice, as borne out by John V's experience. In my case I wouldn't use the LA's most days- but when I did, I would obviously have to accept that recharging everything would take longer than normal. I keep thinking it comes down to whether you want that extra capacity as an occasional fall- back, and to be honest I dont have enough experience to know. In the couple of months since I started cruising, I've managed ok with using 100-150ah of charge each day, and I do like the idea of a simpler set up with a single 200ah lithium battery... but I guess you never know. Yes I think the point is that the voltage on a lithium cell is much more constant than for LA during charging and discharging. So starting from full, the Lithiums will maintain around 13.5v when discharging. There might be a very small amount of current coming out of the LAs too, ie the surface charge. But the LAs don’t discharge significantly until the voltage gets down to 12.7v or so (around 20% SoC on the Li). If you start recharging at that point, hardly anything has been taken out of the LA so there is very little to put back. Nearly all the charge will go to the Li. What little charge has been taken out of the LA will be put back in easily because it is the surface charge, which is easily removed and reinstated. If you continue to discharge from the 20% Li state, then the LA’s will kick in and start supplying the current. Because you are now on the bottom knee of the Li discharge graph the remaining Li charge will come out slowly as the LA batteries will now have the more stable voltage and will supply most of the current. If you discharge the LAs significantly then you have pretty flat Lis and of course fairly flat LAs. When you put them on charge I would imagine (but never tried it) that initially the LAs would take most of the current but as the voltage rose, this would switch to the Lis taking most of the current. Mid charge, the Lis are going to be hoovering it up whilst the LAs stagnate in their usual way. Probably the Lis will get fully charged first, whilst the LAs are still recharging at their painfully slow final 20% or so. This seems to create a bit of a problem in that the Lis have to be held at say 14.4v for several hours after they are full whilst the LAs catch up - they don’t like that. And of course if you are cruising all day, you may end up with the Lis being held at 14.4v for most of the day - they definitely don’t like that! So probably you need to be able to disconnect the Lis once they approach fully charged, so that for the rest of the day’s cruising you are just charging the LAs.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 14:46:55 GMT
In the .nl link I put up earlier the suggestion was that the BMS would take care of these issues by automatically disconnecting the Li from the circuit.
I'm not that convinced it would though because the BMS cutoff is usually somewhat higher than 14.4v.
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Post by JohnV on Oct 28, 2020 15:09:14 GMT
Thanks Peter, those sound pretty good. How much does your friend charge for 200ah of batteries? Are you recommending that 200ah is not enough? On the point of leaving the existing batteries in place until they expire, in principle it sounds fine. I dont have enough technical know-how to be sure of any of this, but one thing that occurs to me is this: I'm trying to reduce the engine running time needed for recharging, and my aim is to use no more than 150ah of charge each day. So I don't really need the extra capacity that the LAs would add, and if I do use them, it will mean running the engine for longer each day to recharge them. I can see them getting into pretty bad shape by me not recharging them properly, as I'll be focused on charging the lithiums. Maybe if I use some clever wiring to ensure the lithium always get used first and charge first, so the LAs would sit unused and inert until the occasional day they were used. That could work.... Lithiums have a higher discharge voltage than LA, so with them in parallel the lithiums supply the current until their SoC gets down to around 20% was just going to post exactly that
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2020 15:18:31 GMT
In the .nl link I put up earlier the suggestion was that the BMS would take care of these issues by automatically disconnecting the Li from the circuit. I'm not that convinced it would though because the BMS cutoff is usually somewhat higher than 14.4v. I guess you have to make sure the BMS on the lithium battery is set up correctly? For the one I was looking at (specs below), it appears the cut off voltage is 10v (which I'm taking to mean the voltage at which the BMS stops the battery giving any more current). I'm sure I read somewhere from one of our knowledgeable members that 10v is too low to be used as a cut off voltage, assuming you want to routinely discharge the batteries down to about 20%. So if I get one, I have to make sure that it has a BMS with a low-voltage cut off that is set at a level I want- and that example model doesnt look right. These are the specs: Maintenance free Lifting handle fitted to ensure secure hold when moving Chemistry: Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Nominal Voltage:12.8V Rated Capacity (0.2C): 200 Ah / 2560Wh Cycle life: > 2000 cycles at 100% Depth of Discharge (DoD), up to 5000 cycles at 80% DoD Rated voltage: 12.8V (Working voltage per cell: 3.2V) Charge voltage: 14.4 - 14.6V Cut-off voltage: 10V Depth of Discharge (DoD): 100% Standard charge current: 40A Charging time: Approximately 5 hours (from low voltage cutoff) Max continuous charge current: 100A Max continuous discharge current: 100A Peak discharge current: 280A Operating temperatures: Standard 0°C~45°C, Discharge -20°C~65°C, Storage -20°C~45°C Impedance (Max, at 1000Hz.): ≤ 40mΩ Battery dimensions(mm): 521x 238 x217 Weight: 22kg Battery Terminals: M8 Charging Tips: Use Lithium battery charger to maximise the capacity When charging with solar, select B04 mode on solar regulator
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Post by peterboat on Oct 28, 2020 16:41:57 GMT
Tont a friend of mine will sell you a drop in Valence it will be secondhand but low cycles, JohnV has them I have them and Kris has them, stick to more than 1 as 1 wont be enough. I have been using mine for over 3 years without issues so has John, you will need to leave the LAs in the system if they are ok it wont cause problems and will increase your capacity, John did this until his LAs expired. I have a full electric boat so its not a problem for me but Alternator charging has to be controlled ok? Thanks Peter, those sound pretty good. How much does your friend charge for 200ah of batteries? Are you recommending that 200ah is not enough? On the point of leaving the existing batteries in place until they expire, in principle it sounds fine. I dont have enough technical know-how to be sure of any of this, but one thing that occurs to me is this: I'm trying to reduce the engine running time needed for recharging, and my aim is to use no more than 150ah of charge each day. So I don't really need the extra capacity that the LAs would add, and if I do use them, it will mean running the engine for longer each day to recharge them. I can see them getting into pretty bad shape by me not recharging them properly, as I'll be focused on charging the lithiums. Maybe if I use some clever wiring to ensure the lithium always get used first and charge first, so the LAs would sit unused and inert until the occasional day they were used. That could work.... The batteries are 138 ah so you would require two for what you need, as Nick says the LAs will end up always being charged anyway.. The extra reserve will let you know if two batteries are enough, Nick is making an alternator controller which I would fit if I was an engine driven boat. I can have a word with James and see what he has if you would like?
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Post by peterboat on Oct 28, 2020 16:47:55 GMT
Lithiums have a higher discharge voltage than LA, so with them in parallel the lithiums supply the current until their SoC gets down to around 20% Thanks Nick- can I ask how the recharging would work with this setup? E.g. would the lithiums draw most of the incoming charge until they were almost full, and then allow the LAs to take most of charge? Or would they all recharge at an equal rate? Either way, it sounds like it all works fine in practice, as borne out by John V's experience. In my case I wouldn't use the LA's most days- but when I did, I would obviously have to accept that recharging everything would take longer than normal. I keep thinking it comes down to whether you want that extra capacity as an occasional fall- back, and to be honest I dont have enough experience to know. In the couple of months since I started cruising, I've managed ok with using 100-150ah of charge each day, and I do like the idea of a simpler set up with a single 200ah lithium battery... but I guess you never know. Dr Bob on CWDF put up a control circuit for what you require I will ask him for it if that would help?
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