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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2016 11:51:42 GMT
Thank you. In my Manual writing days I often used an 'Info Box' to deflect the techies, normally contained words to the effect that this statement is disputed - I'd leave the techies to come up with the exact wording. Meanwhile the techies could not understand why the rest of us were on our third round in the pub before they arrived! But you have to bear in mind that a lot of the stuff on these two threads is us arguing over the finer points. It is not aimed at the beginner! But in order to come up with the best beginners text, it's necessary (IMO) to know the full picture, before applying the simplifications. Completely agree, but don't loose sight of the 'beginners text'. Currently my input is directed to help people come up with a 'beginners text' and somewhat remind people that there is a 'pint waiting' once the discussion concludes. I'll be down the pub in case I'm needed.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 11:52:40 GMT
I wonder if it's worth adding a caveat under the 'Float charge' section pointing out that some chargers set Float at an undesirably low voltage? No I do not think so, but I would also suggest that that section should not lump it in as part of the natural charging cycle. But now we come back to voltage. If the charger sets float at 13.6V as many do then it IS the third stage of the charging cycle.
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 11:54:35 GMT
No I do not think so, but I would also suggest that that section should not lump it in as part of the natural charging cycle. But now we come back to voltage. If the charger sets float at 13.6V as many do then it IS the third stage of the charging cycle. Interesting point what is the manufacturers intent, to charge or hold
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 11:59:43 GMT
From the Sterling Pro Ultra manual for Float
8 "Standby, charger power system power requirement very low, unit on low float voltage to prolong battery life.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 12:04:34 GMT
But now we come back to voltage. If the charger sets float at 13.6V as many do then it IS the third stage of the charging cycle. Interesting point what is the manufacturers intent, to charge or hold Whatever their intent the function will be to do both.
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 1, 2016 12:16:24 GMT
Bloody hell, make a note in your diaries, graham and I agree on something!
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 12:30:45 GMT
Interesting point what is the manufacturers intent, to charge or hold Whatever their intent the function will be to do both. Depends on the battery and other things. I know where you are going but I suggest the brush is too broad. Because it gives the idea that a Float mode will charge my batteries correctly. I could go away leaving my partly charged batteries on float mode and the charger will get all that nasty sulphate off and take them up to full charge. I do not believe it would or could. Rather I think some of the problems with batteries on boats is a charger that have an absorption that turns off way before the battery is on full charged and the goes to float. The float fails to shift the sulphate and it hardens and the cycle of replacements short life batteries starts again.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 12:32:53 GMT
Whatever their intent the function will be to do both. Depends on the battery and other things. I know where you are going but I suggest the brush is too broad. Because it gives the idea that a Float mode will charge my batteries correctly. I could go away leaving my partly charged batteries on float mode and the charger will get all that nasty sulphate off and take them up to full charge. I do not believe it would or could. Rather I think some of the problems with batteries on boats is a charger that have an absorption that turns off way before the battery is on full charged and the goes to float. The float fails to shift the sulphate and it hardens and the cycle of replacements short life batteries starts again. Please re-read the OP. I do not believe that I suggest any of the above. If I do then I'll happily edit it to remove the confusion.
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 13:17:20 GMT
Depends on the battery and other things. I know where you are going but I suggest the brush is too broad. Because it gives the idea that a Float mode will charge my batteries correctly. I could go away leaving my partly charged batteries on float mode and the charger will get all that nasty sulphate off and take them up to full charge. I do not believe it would or could. Rather I think some of the problems with batteries on boats is a charger that have an absorption that turns off way before the battery is on full charged and the goes to float. The float fails to shift the sulphate and it hardens and the cycle of replacements short life batteries starts again. Please re-read the OP. I do not believe that I suggest any of the above. If I do then I'll happily edit it to remove the confusion. Unless my eyes are getting worse you wrote "3. Float Stage. This is similar to the Absorption Stage inasmuch as the voltage is constant, but the voltage is now reduced to around 13.6V (again, preset according to battery type and internal chemistry) in order to treat the battery gently and slowly bring it to a fully charged state. You treat it as a charging stage not as a maintenance mode, that is there to keep the battery where it is. Which I suppose is my point. It is not an absorption stage, both voltage and current are reduced, limited, and controlled. If the current was free to deliver whatever the battery would take I might agree with you, but with the current being limited as well as the voltage. I am trying to think of a charger with a timed absorption that on the change to float that has delivered more than an amp or so. Can't think of one. I have come across smart chargers that will drop back into absorption if the battery voltage drops etc. But not many and can't think of one at the moment, don't think the Sterling Pro does.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 13:42:49 GMT
Please re-read the OP. I do not believe that I suggest any of the above. If I do then I'll happily edit it to remove the confusion. Unless my eyes are getting worse you wrote "3. Float Stage. This is similar to the Absorption Stage inasmuch as the voltage is constant, but the voltage is now reduced to around 13.6V (again, preset according to battery type and internal chemistry) in order to treat the battery gently and slowly bring it to a fully charged state. You treat it as a charging stage not as a maintenance mode, that is there to keep the battery where it is. Which I suppose is my point. It is not an absorption stage, both voltage and current are reduced, limited, and controlled. Hence my suggestion of adding a caveat about chargers with a float voltage of 13.2V or thereabouts. To the best of my knowledge you are incorrect in stating that the current is limited when in Float. I have never seen that documented - can you point me to anything that states this? The voltage is lowered and because of this the current drawn by the battery is very low. However it is the same as absorption in so far as that current isn't restricted. It will supply whatever the battery requires, which won't be much at such a low voltage. As I've repeatedly stated, I'm happy to amend the OP to correct any errors (hence my suggestion of the caveat) but I remain to be convinced that (for a charger with 13.6V float) it is fundamentally incorrect as it currently stands
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 1, 2016 13:50:54 GMT
Unless my eyes are getting worse you wrote "3. Float Stage. This is similar to the Absorption Stage inasmuch as the voltage is constant, but the voltage is now reduced to around 13.6V (again, preset according to battery type and internal chemistry) in order to treat the battery gently and slowly bring it to a fully charged state. You treat it as a charging stage not as a maintenance mode, that is there to keep the battery where it is. Which I suppose is my point. It is not an absorption stage, both voltage and current are reduced, limited, and controlled. Hence my suggestion of adding a caveat about chargers with a float voltage of 13.2V or thereabouts. To the best of my knowledge you are incorrect in stating that the current is limited when in Float. I have never seen that documented - can you point me to anything that states this? The voltage is lowered and because of this the current drawn by the battery is very low. However it is the same as absorption in so far as that current isn't restricted. It will supply whatever the battery requires, which won't be much at such a low voltage. As I've repeatedly stated, I'm happy to amend the OP to correct any errors (hence my suggestion of the caveat) but I remain to be convinced that (for a charger with 13.6V float) it is fundamentally incorrect as it currently stands No I don't think current in float is limited per se, but what happens with chargers such as our own Mastervolt one is that if a high current is demanded, the charger goes out of float and back to absorb. There is a setting for what that current is. I think this hints at the difficulty. Float mode is whatever the charger manufacturer designs it to be, and they are by no means all singing from the same hymn sheet
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 13:52:39 GMT
Hence my suggestion of adding a caveat about chargers with a float voltage of 13.2V or thereabouts. To the best of my knowledge you are incorrect in stating that the current is limited when in Float. I have never seen that documented - can you point me to anything that states this? The voltage is lowered and because of this the current drawn by the battery is very low. However it is the same as absorption in so far as that current isn't restricted. It will supply whatever the battery requires, which won't be much at such a low voltage. As I've repeatedly stated, I'm happy to amend the OP to correct any errors (hence my suggestion of the caveat) but I remain to be convinced that (for a charger with 13.6V float) it is fundamentally incorrect as it currently stands No I don't think current in float is limited per se, but what happens with chargers such as our own Mastervolt one is that if a high current is demanded, the charger goes out of float and back to absorb. There is a setting for what that current is. I think this hints at the difficulty. Float mode is whatever the charger manufacturer designs it to be, and they are by no means all singing from the same hymn sheet Completely agree. Now if we could all agree on a suitable re-wording or caveat for the Float section that would be even better.
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 14:05:25 GMT
Unless my eyes are getting worse you wrote "3. Float Stage. This is similar to the Absorption Stage inasmuch as the voltage is constant, but the voltage is now reduced to around 13.6V (again, preset according to battery type and internal chemistry) in order to treat the battery gently and slowly bring it to a fully charged state. You treat it as a charging stage not as a maintenance mode, that is there to keep the battery where it is. Which I suppose is my point. It is not an absorption stage, both voltage and current are reduced, limited, and controlled. Hence my suggestion of adding a caveat about chargers with a float voltage of 13.2V or thereabouts. To the best of my knowledge you are incorrect in stating that the current is limited when in Float. I have never seen that documented - can you point me to anything that states this? The voltage is lowered and because of this the current drawn by the battery is very low. However it is the same as absorption in so far as that current isn't restricted. It will supply whatever the battery requires, which won't be much at such a low voltage. As I've repeatedly stated, I'm happy to amend the OP to correct any errors (hence my suggestion of the caveat) but I remain to be convinced that (for a charger with 13.6V float) it is fundamentally incorrect as it currently stands No I cannot give you any documentation only experience of watching chargers go from 20 amps or so on absorption to less than 1 amp on float. Cycle the charger and back to 20 amps or so. Some chargers the float does actually finish off the charging but in these the voltage actually reduces and is not static. Other it is purely a maintenance mode. Difficult depends on the charger etc. Tony it is up to you I have given you my thoughts. It does concern me that people will think they can leave batteries to charge on float, but it is your article. I would prefer it called a maintenance mode and take out the implication that it is like absorption.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 14:08:09 GMT
Hence my suggestion of adding a caveat about chargers with a float voltage of 13.2V or thereabouts. To the best of my knowledge you are incorrect in stating that the current is limited when in Float. I have never seen that documented - can you point me to anything that states this? The voltage is lowered and because of this the current drawn by the battery is very low. However it is the same as absorption in so far as that current isn't restricted. It will supply whatever the battery requires, which won't be much at such a low voltage. As I've repeatedly stated, I'm happy to amend the OP to correct any errors (hence my suggestion of the caveat) but I remain to be convinced that (for a charger with 13.6V float) it is fundamentally incorrect as it currently stands No I cannot give you any documentation only experience of watching chargers go from 20 amps or so on absorption to less than 1 amp on float. Cycle the charger and back to 20 amps or so. Some chargers the float does actually finish off the charging but in these the voltage actually reduces and is not static. Other it is purely a maintenance mode. Difficult depends on the charger etc. Tony it is up to you I have given you my thoughts. It does concern me that people will think they can leave batteries to charge on float, but it is your article. I would prefer it called a maintenance mode and take out the implication that it is like absorption. But I don't want to offer poor advice. This is why I keep suggesting a caveat. Oh sod it, I'll just put one in. If you read the whole post you'll see that the general gist of it is to NOT allow the charger to go into Float ever unless you're on a landline.
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 14:08:24 GMT
Hence my suggestion of adding a caveat about chargers with a float voltage of 13.2V or thereabouts. To the best of my knowledge you are incorrect in stating that the current is limited when in Float. I have never seen that documented - can you point me to anything that states this? The voltage is lowered and because of this the current drawn by the battery is very low. However it is the same as absorption in so far as that current isn't restricted. It will supply whatever the battery requires, which won't be much at such a low voltage. As I've repeatedly stated, I'm happy to amend the OP to correct any errors (hence my suggestion of the caveat) but I remain to be convinced that (for a charger with 13.6V float) it is fundamentally incorrect as it currently stands No I don't think current in float is limited per se, but what happens with chargers such as our own Mastervolt one is that if a high current is demanded, the charger goes out of float and back to absorb. There is a setting for what that current is. I think this hints at the difficulty. Float mode is whatever the charger manufacturer designs it to be, and they are by no means all singing from the same hymn sheet Hymns Ancient & Modern, I think we agree
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