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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 15:26:04 GMT
I'm rather hoping Gibbo will return having thought about it. He didn't really put up any substantial counter argument which makes me think he needed to go away and think about it. Gibbo has other demands on his time at present, it has nothing to do with 'thinking about' anything. It's up to him to say what he's been up to if he so chooses to but I can assure you it's not that.
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 1, 2016 15:28:09 GMT
I'm rather hoping Gibbo will return having thought about it. He didn't really put up any substantial counter argument which makes me think he needed to go away and think about it. Gibbo has other demands on his time at present, it has nothing to do with 'thinking about' anything. It's up to him to say what he's been up to if he so chooses to but I can assure you it's not that. Whatever. My point was that his heart wasn't really in the debate for whatever reason, which matches what you are saying.
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Post by canaldweller on Nov 1, 2016 15:38:10 GMT
Out of interest this is what the well respected BatteryFAQ website has to say about Absorb and Float "9.1.2. The ABSORPTION stage is where the charger voltage, depending on the battery type, is constant between 14.1 VDC and 14.8 VDC at 80° F (26.7° C) and the current decreases until the battery is fully charged, which is typically the last 20% of the recharge. For wet batteries, gassing ( making a bubbling sound) usually starts at 80% to 90% of a full charge and is normal. A full charge typically occurs when the charging current drops off to 2% (C/50) or less of the AH capacity of the battery and each cell of a wet battery is moderately gassing equally. For example, end current for a 50 AH (C/20) battery is approximately 1.0 amp (1000 milliamps) or less. If the battery will not "hold" a charge, the current does not drop after the estimated recharge time, and a wet battery is hot (above 125° F (51.5° C)), then the battery may have some permanent sulfation. (Please refer to Section 16 for more information about sulfation and how to remove it.) Manual two-stage chargers that have a bulk and absorption stage must be turned off when the battery is fully charged to prevent overcharging. 9.1.3. The optional FLOAT stage is where the charge voltage, depending on the battery type, is reduced to between 13.0 VDC and 13.8 VDC at 80° F (26.7° C), held constant. It can be used indefinitely to maintain a fully charged battery to overcome the natural self-discharge of the battery. The current is reduced to approximately 1% (C/100) or less. Three-stage "smart" chargers usually have the bulk, absorption and float stages. (Please refer to Section 13 for more information about storing batteries and continuous float charging.)" I pretty much agree with all of that. Although where is says "The current is reduced..." I take it to mean as a result of the battery's demand, not the charger's max output. The important point is that float is not entered until after the battery is fully charged, and that float is a maintenance function Is it possible to nail this down a bit? Okay, I can't hear anything over the sound of the engine (the first bit I've highlighted) but what does "moderately gassing" mean? I charge my Trojans at 14.8v and the bubbles are a bit like a glass of pop. That is, about once a second, more or less, I see a small bubble come to the surface. The impression I get, when people mention gassing, is one of a saucepan, more or less, bubbling away.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 15:38:33 GMT
My point was that his heart wasn't really in the debate for whatever reason Spot on
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 15:41:15 GMT
Out of interest this is what the well respected BatteryFAQ website has to say about Absorb and Float "9.1.2. The ABSORPTION stage is where the charger voltage, depending on the battery type, is constant between 14.1 VDC and 14.8 VDC at 80° F (26.7° C) and the current decreases until the battery is fully charged, which is typically the last 20% of the recharge. For wet batteries, gassing ( making a bubbling sound) usually starts at 80% to 90% of a full charge and is normal. A full charge typically occurs when the charging current drops off to 2% (C/50) or less of the AH capacity of the battery and each cell of a wet battery is moderately gassing equally. For example, end current for a 50 AH (C/20) battery is approximately 1.0 amp (1000 milliamps) or less. If the battery will not "hold" a charge, the current does not drop after the estimated recharge time, and a wet battery is hot (above 125° F (51.5° C)), then the battery may have some permanent sulfation. (Please refer to Section 16 for more information about sulfation and how to remove it.) Manual two-stage chargers that have a bulk and absorption stage must be turned off when the battery is fully charged to prevent overcharging. 9.1.3. The optional FLOAT stage is where the charge voltage, depending on the battery type, is reduced to between 13.0 VDC and 13.8 VDC at 80° F (26.7° C), held constant. It can be used indefinitely to maintain a fully charged battery to overcome the natural self-discharge of the battery. The current is reduced to approximately 1% (C/100) or less. Three-stage "smart" chargers usually have the bulk, absorption and float stages. (Please refer to Section 13 for more information about storing batteries and continuous float charging.)" I pretty much agree with all of that. Although where is says "The current is reduced..." I take it to mean as a result of the battery's demand, not the charger's max output. The important point is that float is not entered until after the battery is fully charged, and that float is a maintenance function Is it possible to nail this down a bit? Okay, I can't hear anything over the sound of the engine (the first bit I've highlighted) but what does "moderately gassing" mean? I charge my Trojans at 14.8v and the bubbles are a bit like a glass of pop. That is, about once a second, more or less, I see a small bubble come to the surface. The impression I get, when people mention gassing, is one of a saucepan, more or less, bubbling away. What batteries do you have? If they're Trojans then they will only gas 'lightly' at 14.8V. A 'standard' leisure battery (whatever that is) will bubble maybe not as fast as a rapidly boiling pan of water, but will be a pretty constant, albeit gentle, burble.
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 1, 2016 15:42:12 GMT
Sorry, I missed the pretty obvious "I charge my Trojans" bit!
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Post by canaldweller on Nov 1, 2016 16:01:05 GMT
Is it possible to nail this down a bit? Okay, I can't hear anything over the sound of the engine (the first bit I've highlighted) but what does "moderately gassing" mean? I charge my Trojans at 14.8v and the bubbles are a bit like a glass of pop. That is, about once a second, more or less, I see a small bubble come to the surface. The impression I get, when people mention gassing, is one of a saucepan, more or less, bubbling away. What batteries do you have? If they're Trojans then they will only gas 'lightly' at 14.8V. A 'standard' leisure battery (whatever that is) will bubble maybe not as fast as a rapidly boiling pan of water, but will be a pretty constant, albeit gentle, burble. Thanks for that. It has put my mind at rest.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Nov 1, 2016 16:08:30 GMT
My leisure batteries are only a year old but they already seem to be on the way out... One problem I have is that I can only fit the smaller, low-height batteries, and I only have room for two of them. I'm beginning to think replacing them is going to be an annual exercise. I will spend the extra on Varta or Hankook batteries this time I think, rather than generic ebay crap.
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 16:23:38 GMT
My leisure batteries are only a year old but they already seem to be on the way out... One problem I have is that I can only fit the smaller, low-height batteries, and I only have room for two of them. I'm beginning to think replacing them is going to be an annual exercise. I will spend the extra on Varta or Hankook batteries this time I think, rather than generic ebay crap. Well how long did the generic crap last ? How long do you expect the Varta or Hankook to last?
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Post by Mr Stabby on Nov 1, 2016 16:33:25 GMT
My leisure batteries are only a year old but they already seem to be on the way out... One problem I have is that I can only fit the smaller, low-height batteries, and I only have room for two of them. I'm beginning to think replacing them is going to be an annual exercise. I will spend the extra on Varta or Hankook batteries this time I think, rather than generic ebay crap. Well how long did the generic crap last ? How long do you expect the Varta or Hankook to last? I fitted new batteries about this time last year, so I suppose they have done about 250 cycles. However, I recently read this article www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/13871919/ccmnovtechnical.pdf?type=archive which clearly shows that most batteries sold as leisure batteries are not constructed as leisure batteries at all, but are re-labelled starter batteries. In fact, Varta was one of only two brands tested which was a true leisure battery, and Varta are the preferred choice of battery in the road transport industry. Hankook too is regarded as a reliable manufacturer (they supply Toyota and Lexus with batteries). As for whether they would last any longer, I don't know.
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 16:42:16 GMT
Well how long did the generic crap last ? How long do you expect the Varta or Hankook to last? I fitted new batteries about this time last year, so I suppose they have done about 250 cycles. However, I recently read this article www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/13871919/ccmnovtechnical.pdf?type=archive which clearly shows that most batteries sold as leisure batteries are not constructed as leisure batteries at all, but are re-labelled starter batteries. In fact, Varta was one of only two brands tested which was a true leisure battery, and Varta are the preferred choice of battery in the road transport industry. Hankook too is regarded as a reliable manufacturer (they supply Toyota and Lexus with batteries). As for whether they would last any longer, I don't know. You can only but try. How many cycles are they supposed to do?
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Post by Mr Stabby on Nov 1, 2016 17:09:34 GMT
I fitted new batteries about this time last year, so I suppose they have done about 250 cycles. However, I recently read this article www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/13871919/ccmnovtechnical.pdf?type=archive which clearly shows that most batteries sold as leisure batteries are not constructed as leisure batteries at all, but are re-labelled starter batteries. In fact, Varta was one of only two brands tested which was a true leisure battery, and Varta are the preferred choice of battery in the road transport industry. Hankook too is regarded as a reliable manufacturer (they supply Toyota and Lexus with batteries). As for whether they would last any longer, I don't know. You can only but try. How many cycles are they supposed to do? This advert for Hankook leisure batteries says 550 cycles- www.amazon.co.uk/100Ah-Leisure-Battery-Cycles-Warranty/dp/B015FTFQ8G/ref=pd_lpo_200_bs_tr_t_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=XH7VSPDBG5PFWWYBKY2MI do consider Hankook to be a good brand, I used to fit Hankook tyres on my truck and they always handled and lasted well compared to more well-known brands- they say in road transport "You only fit a Goodyear if you're having a bad year".
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Post by tonyb on Nov 1, 2016 17:17:39 GMT
I would be a little suspicious of that 550 cycles. The few data sheet I have seen normally also say for example to 40% DoD. I did not see that on the Amazon site. In fact i think my Exide leisures have done something like that even though they quote 300 cycles @ 40% but I doubt they have ever been regularly discharge to mush below about 60 to 70%. I think they could claim almost what figure they like without a DoD.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Nov 1, 2016 17:23:07 GMT
I would be a little suspicious of that 550 cycles. The few data sheet I have seen normally also say for example to 40% DoD. I did not see that on the Amazon site. In fact i think my Exide leisures have done something like that even though they quote 300 cycles @ 40% but I doubt they have ever been regularly discharge to mush below about 60 to 70%. I think they could claim almost what figure they like without a DoD. Yes, Exide are another reliable make, I'm just not sure whether they make the smaller size batteries which my boat has, whereas I know Varta and Hankook do. Lovely though my boat is, it wasn't designed to be a liveboard, and so it has limited capacity for batteries, space for only 4.5kg gas bottles etc.
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Post by Graham on Nov 1, 2016 17:43:44 GMT
Do you have any idea as to the DoD that you discharge your batteries to each time before charging
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