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Post by Gibbo on Oct 31, 2016 14:08:12 GMT
I'm confusing "electrical charge and current, with energy and power "? That's the funniest thing you've ever written. You are wrong. Needless to say I realise that you do understand the difference, however you are mixing it up in your post. No I am not! During a heavy discharge energy is lost. If you believe that is an incorrect use of the term energy, then it is you who is confused.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 31, 2016 14:10:47 GMT
Needless to say I realise that you do understand the difference, however you are mixing it up in your post. No I am not! During a heavy discharge energy is lost. If you believe that is an incorrect use of the term energy, then it is you who is confused. I keep saying that I agree that energy is lost during a heavy discharge so I'm not quite sure what your point is? However AH are not lost. AH in isolation doesn't have any energy.
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Post by Gibbo on Oct 31, 2016 14:17:14 GMT
No I am not! During a heavy discharge energy is lost. If you believe that is an incorrect use of the term energy, then it is you who is confused. I keep saying that I agree that energy is lost during a heavy discharge so I'm not quite sure what your point is? However AH are not lost. AH in isolation doesn't have any energy. I think you are desperately trying to play with words. But you are failing. It isn't possible to have an AH without any energy. How do you intend to get 1 amp to flow for an hour without any energy?
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Post by JohnV on Oct 31, 2016 14:18:52 GMT
Dammit you three ...... for gawds sake slow down .... I just decide I agree with something or disagree with something and go to say so and find you are three or four posts further along ..... It's not bloody fair ..... I want to get in on this fight too
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 31, 2016 14:21:13 GMT
I keep saying that I agree that energy is lost during a heavy discharge so I'm not quite sure what your point is? However AH are not lost. AH in isolation doesn't have any energy. I think you are desperately trying to play with words. But you are failing. It isn't possible to have an AH without any energy. How do you intend to get 1 amp to flow for an hour without any energy? Come on Gibbo. Back to basic dimensional analysis. Charge has no energy except in the presence of a voltage gradient. There is electrical charge everywhere but until it is "pumped up" by a voltage gradient it just sits there. Hence a unit of measurement is the MeV or mega electron volt. Energy = Charge x voltage. If the voltage is zero, there is no energy.
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Post by Graham on Oct 31, 2016 14:22:15 GMT
It is over 50 years since I have done any of this but my brain is screaming Nick your wrong, does not mean I am right. An electron, Ion etc has a charge and thus some energy. That charge can cause the electron to move because of the associated charges around it. The attraction, if brain is even working, is related to the voltage of the charge that is rejecting or attracting. The current is related to the number of charged particles the attracting charge can move at the relevant speed. Thus an electron or Ion does not move without voltage so voltage has got to be involved in there somewhere else you cannot have current as there will be no flow of particles. Brain dead Ever heard of MeV in the sphere of particle physics? Mega electron volts. It is a measure of energy. Without the volts, there is no energy. An electron in isolation (not in an electric field) has no energy as a result of its charge. Charge is not energy! In your text above you mention a few things that relate to electric field gradient or voltage. It is these that give a charged particle energy. I am sorry something is saying an electron always has energy because it is being attracted/rejected by those electrons/protons etc around it the atom whatever maybe neutral but its components have energy, hence split an atom and the release of the stored energy. Charge in my world was always measured in volts and still is I think you could be talking about the release of energy but not sure. I am sorry, nothing in my brain will allow for a flow of current without a voltage to attract or reject the electron flow, the more electrons that flow the greater the current. Brain is saying go back to valve technology it was all volts to get the electrons to flow and the greater the flow the greater the power and thus the current.
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Post by Graham on Oct 31, 2016 14:24:23 GMT
Dammit you three ...... for gawds sake slow down .... I just decide I agree with something or disagree with something and go to say so and find you are three or four posts further along ..... It's not bloody fair ..... I want to get in on this fight too Pull your meter and screwdriver out and go to it lol
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 31, 2016 14:24:44 GMT
If you think charge is measured in volts then sorry but I don't think there is any point in us continuing this discussion. Oh and when you split an atom the energy comes from the nucleus (hence nuclear power), not from the electrons.
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Post by JohnV on Oct 31, 2016 14:34:00 GMT
Ok here goes. Let's put a target up that you can agree on and all try to shoot it down with balls of solid shit.
Surely AH is only an actual measurement when it is in the past.
You can clearly measure the past consumption in ampere hours as a fact.
The AH of a battery is surely only a potential and at that, only an approximation of what it will actually supply.
The actual supplied figure is totally dependent on external factors time/temperature/current draw.
So surely to talk of "losing AH" is meaningless
runs and ducks behind a blast wall
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Post by Graham on Oct 31, 2016 14:34:13 GMT
I think you are desperately trying to play with words. But you are failing. It isn't possible to have an AH without any energy. How do you intend to get 1 amp to flow for an hour without any energy? Come on Gibbo. Back to basic dimensional analysis. Charge has no energy except in the presence of a voltage gradient. There is electrical charge everywhere but until it is "pumped up" by a voltage gradient it just sits there. Hence a unit of measurement is the MeV or mega electron volt. Energy = Charge x voltage. If the voltage is zero, there is no energy. So in order for an electron to move it has to have a voltage gradient, yes, for that gradient to attract the electron the electron has to have a voltage opposite to the gradient. Thus the electron had to have a voltage else where did it suddenly appear from, albeit it was held neutralised by the particles around it. Nick try to bring the words and thoughts down to the audience level
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Post by Graham on Oct 31, 2016 14:35:39 GMT
Ok here goes. Let's put a target up that you can agree on and all try to shoot it down with balls of solid shit. Surely AH is only an actual measurement when it is in the past. You can clearly measure the past consumption in ampere hours as a fact. The AH of a battery is surely only a potential and at that, only an approximation of what it will actually supply. The actual supplied figure is totally dependent on external factors time/temperature/current draw. So surely to talk of "losing AH" is meaningless runs and ducks behind a blast wall Know how you feel
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Post by Gibbo on Oct 31, 2016 14:44:51 GMT
I think you are desperately trying to play with words. But you are failing. It isn't possible to have an AH without any energy. How do you intend to get 1 amp to flow for an hour without any energy? Come on Gibbo. Back to basic dimensional analysis. Charge has no energy except in the presence of a voltage gradient. There is electrical charge everywhere but until it is "pumped up" by a voltage gradient it just sits there. Hence a unit of measurement is the MeV or mega electron volt. Energy = Charge x voltage. If the voltage is zero, there is no energy. Agreed. Now explain how you can have an AH with no energy.
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Post by JohnV on Oct 31, 2016 14:49:45 GMT
Come on Gibbo. Back to basic dimensional analysis. Charge has no energy except in the presence of a voltage gradient. There is electrical charge everywhere but until it is "pumped up" by a voltage gradient it just sits there. Hence a unit of measurement is the MeV or mega electron volt. Energy = Charge x voltage. If the voltage is zero, there is no energy. Agreed. Now explain how you can have an AH with no energy. Take your fully charged battery and throw it overboard...... then you have no energy ....,..,,. simples
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Post by Graham on Oct 31, 2016 14:53:03 GMT
Agreed. Now explain how you can have an AH with no energy. Take your fully charged battery and throw it overboard...... then you have no energy ....,..,,. simples Hold the pandy out --- smack smack lol
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2016 14:53:49 GMT
Gibbo v Nick, so glad I joined this site, sits back to enjoy the show.....
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