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Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 23, 2024 13:44:05 GMT
As I said earlier, C&RT, particularly in respect of its Mickey Mouse administration/operation of the so-called Ribble Link, is a wholly incompetent and utterly useless apology for a navigation authority that knows absolutely nothing about how to organise or run tidal passage operations, . . it also claims, coincidentally, to have authority and control over waters on which it in fact has NO authority or control whatsoever.
This from C&RT's 'Ribble Link Terms and Conditions' :-
"Link" means the Millenium Ribble Link between the Lancaster Canal and Lock 8 (Tarleton Lock) on the Rufford Branch of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal.
. . . which is quite simply untrue. The quoted item from the T&C's is wilfully misleading in implying that the C&RT is the navigation authority for, and has control over, the River Douglas from the tail of Tarleton Lock (No 8) on the L&L Rufford Arm, and the River Ribble (plus half a mile of the tidal Savick Brook) from Five Mile Perch (Astland Light) to the former Preston Docks.
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Post by dyertribe on Apr 23, 2024 17:03:18 GMT
Does anyone have a recipe for lemon posset?
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Post by Aloysius on Apr 23, 2024 17:14:04 GMT
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Post by dyertribe on Apr 23, 2024 17:15:24 GMT
Thank you, much appreciated
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Post by Jim on Apr 23, 2024 17:30:50 GMT
Is there one without lemon, the acid sets my reflux off.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 23, 2024 17:47:55 GMT
C&RT's spectacular incompetence with regard to planning and running tidal passage operations has again been highlighted over the last few days.
Last Friday, 19 April, the following e-mail was sent to its Northwest Area Orifice :-
Ribble Link Navigational Information
Please provide the following information in respect of the half-tide gate in Savick Brook - erroneously referred to by the C&RT as the 'Sea Lock' or Lock No 9 : --
1) Height relative to ODN of the top/upper edge of the moveable barrier gate when in the fully lowered position.
2) Is there a fixed gauge board in the vicinity of the moveable barrier gate that gives the depth of water over the gate when in the fully lowered position ?
Signed, A.K.Dunkley (Canal & River Transport Services)
____________________________________________________________________________________
Today, four days later, having assigned a 'case number' to the enquiry, and spoken to the 'operational team', C&RT's Northwest Orifice replied with this :-
Re: [CASE:1238480] Ribble Link Navigational Information
Good Afternoon.
Thank you for taking your time to contact the Canal & River Trust.
With regards to your recent enquiry, I have spoken with our engineers who have looked over our records and have answered the following:
1) Effective height in relation to Ordnance Datum Newlyn [ODN] of Half-tide Barrier on the Ribble Link when in fully raised/closed position. 3000mm ODN
2) Height in relation to ODN of the lower/outer cill of Lock No.8 on the Ribble Link. 1500mm ODN
3) Least depth of water in navigation channel between the Half-tide Barrier and the tail of Lock No.8 when the Half-tide Barrier is in the fully raised/closed position. 900mm
To confirm we do have a gauge board and down of the sea gate for passage.
If you have any other enquiries please do not hesitate to contact Canal & River Trust via enquiries.northwest@canalrivertrust.org.uk or on 03030404040 where a member of the team will be happy to help.
Kind Regards
________________________________________________________________________________________
No need to look any further for the real reason why the Ribble Link is only open to navigation for 66 days throughout the whole of this year, . . and only in one direction at a time, on any one of those 66 days.
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Post by dyertribe on Apr 23, 2024 17:55:13 GMT
Is there one without lemon, the acid sets my reflux off. It’s the acidic lemon that sets the posset, unfortunately
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Post by cds on Apr 23, 2024 18:53:29 GMT
As I said earlier, C&RT, particularly in respect of its Mickey Mouse administration/operation of the so-called Ribble Link, is a wholly incompetent and utterly useless apology for a navigation authority that knows absolutely nothing about how to organise or run tidal passage operations, . . it also claims, coincidentally, to have authority and control over waters on which it in fact has NO authority or control whatsoever. This from C&RT's 'Ribble Link Terms and Conditions' :- "Link" means the Millenium Ribble Link between the Lancaster Canal and Lock 8 (Tarleton Lock) on the Rufford Branch of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal.. . . which is quite simply untrue. The quoted item from the T&C's is wilfully misleading in implying that the C&RT is the navigation authority for, and has control over, the River Douglas from the tail of Tarleton Lock (No 8) on the L&L Rufford Arm, and the River Ribble (plus half a mile of the tidal Savick Brook) from Five Mile Perch (Astland Light) to the former Preston Docks.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 23, 2024 19:11:59 GMT
In post < thunderboat.boards.net/post/395943/thread > I said " I'll deal with the other points you've raised after we've got your misconceptions about times for penning out at Tarleton straightened out.". It appears from the post quoted above that your misconceptions are far from straightened out, and you've yet to grasp the basic essentials of how to work round tides and tide times in rivers and estuaries. C&RT too, have little to no understanding of the basic principles and practices that really must not be deviated from or ignored. Lack of the necessary sound background knowledge, and being neither willing nor able to adapt to or make the best use of whatever circumstances and conditions prevail on the day is not a formula for the successful planning of safe and efficient routine tidal passage making. The two questions you ask above, and the answers to them, aren't applicable to planning Tarleton to Preston passages. The last couple of miles of the Douglas (Astland/Asland), on the last of the Ebb or around local LW, is no place for canal pleasure craft crewed by amateur part timers unfamiliar with tidal estuaries to be messing about. On mean tides or bigger, there's usually a fairly big fast moving tidal bore in the Ribble, . . comparable with the Trent Aegre from around Owston Ferry and on up to Gainsborough. There are also numerous sandbanks and shoals, many of which dry out at local LW, extending a good mile or more up the Douglas from Astland Light. The last few hundred yards of the Douglas, including the scoured out deepwater channel that runs close to the training wall, is almost like a mirror image of the Trent in the area of South Trent, North Trent, and Apex Lights. The question of dredging doesn't arise. The deepwater channel in the Ribble was dredged regularly when shipping was still using Preston Docks, . . but the lower reaches of the Douglas, all the way down to Astland Light, were always left to the process of natural scouring, in the same way the Trent is left to scour out the deepwater channel itself from Cliff End, past Middle Sand, to Apex Light. The only safe, practical, and efficient option for shallow draught pleasure craft making the Tarleton to Preston passage is to pen out into the river Douglas as soon as possible after arriving at Tarleton. This can be done at any time during the period of anything up to 16 hours out of every whole tidal day* during which there is sufficient depth of water in the lock tail and over the outer cill for them. Once in the river, they can, and should, move the short distance downriver to the boatyard, and wait on the boatyard floating stages in the river Douglas for the Flood (tide) that's going to take them up the Ribble and into Savick Brook. Making use of a few minutes out of those many hours of opportunity, by penning out into the river as soon as possible after arrival at Tarleton means, in effect, that you don't 'use up' any of one tide at all. It's the next tide - one tide only - that's taken up with the Tarleton to Preston passage. Unlike the ridiculous C&RT booking/scheduling arrangements that waste time, and one whole tide, by making you wait in the canal at Tarleton for the remainder of the day on which you arrive there, . . if you pen out into river as soon after arriving at Tarleton as you possibly can, then you're all set to catch the next day's tide - one tide only - up the Ribble to Preston, . . at exactly the right time. Catching the Flood running up to Preston at exactly the right time - which is NOT possible if you follow C&RT's Mickey Mouse and potentially quite risky scheduling for penning out into the river at Tarleton - means that you'll have the Flood under you all the way upriver from Astland Light, and you'll be turning into the Savick Brook's Ribble outfall on a rising tide, which rules out any possibility of having to divert to Preston Docks Marina, and having to wait, . . and pay, . . overnight in there for the next day's first tide to get you the mile and a bit back down river and into the so-called 'Ribble Link'. * Average duration 24 hrs 51 mins. Ok so I think what you are saying is that instead of waiting for the flood to lock onto the Douglas, you lock onto it earlier, during the lengthy period when there is enough water to do so. You then can cruise down to the boatyard without having to punch the flood. From the boatyard, you still have to wait for the flood but of course it is earlier. You still have to punch the flood to Astland lamp, but it is obviously a shorter distance. So the saving comprises 2 elements, one being the earlier flood at the boatyard and the other being the shorter distance to punch the flood to Astland. With the flood being fairly short lived I guess it could well be that the flood has expired before you get to Astland lamp. But then that last point applies even more to departing Tarleton on the flood. So although it isn’t going to make a huge difference, even an hour earlier arrival at Savick is going to virtually eliminate the possibility of having to divert to Preston, and / or increase the number of days when the transit is feasible. The fly in the ointment being that there has to be space and permission to tie up at the boatyard. I doubt that would be free and the boatyard might not be prepared to guarantee space months in advance. I’m not sure how many boats typically make the transit, but narrowboats take up a lot of space even when rafted. The first sentence of the above reply is broadly correct, . . but takes no account of many vital considerations and/or variables. Included in those vital considerations and/or variables, for instance, is the depth of water in the lock tail and over the outer cill at local LW at Tarleton. In anything but exceptional wind and atmospheric pressure conditions, and with little to no 'fresh' coming down the river Douglas there's no depth to speak of, . . the lock tail and outer cill virtually dry/bare out at local LW. Regarding the incorrect presumptions and concerns over the time of arrival of the Flood at the boatyard compared with Flood at Tarleton Sea Lock, and the unnecessary concerns over having to stem the Flood from the boatyard to the Astland Light. The time difference between Flood at the boatyard and Flood at Tarleton Sea Lock is negligible, . . 5 minutes or less. Also, the Flood runs up much slower in the last 2 miles of the Douglas, due to the much increased width of the lower reaches. The crucial factor is getting underway, from the layover mooring at the boatyard, at exactly the right time in relation to the first of the Flood, or the tidal bore, beginning to run up the Douglas. Doing so leaves ample time to make the entrance into the Savick Brook outfall on a rising tide, . . having been pushed upriver all the way from Astland Light by that same tide. Lay by mooring space at the boatyard wasn't a problem when I last spoke with them, and I see no reason why it should be now or in the future. There are long lengths of normally unoccupied floating stages, extending from the boatyard round the bend in the river. As for your concerns about the cost of a one tide layover on the river stages, . . the boatyard don't want anything near as much as what Preston Docks Marina will charge you, . . if you're left with no choice but to overnight in there on solely on account of C&RT's sheer unprofessionalism and incompetence in forcing you into making the river passage at the wrong time, at the wrong state of the tide, . . and on waters that are NOT under C&RT authority or control.
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Post by Arthur on Apr 23, 2024 19:18:53 GMT
Any news from the police investigating the two mindless idiots libel prosecution case Tony?
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 23, 2024 22:23:35 GMT
C&RT's spectacular incompetence with regard to planning and running tidal passage operations has again been highlighted over the last few days. Last Friday, 19 April, the following e-mail was sent to its Northwest Area Orifice :- Ribble Link Navigational Information
Please provide the following information in respect of the half-tide gate in Savick Brook - erroneously referred to by the C&RT as the 'Sea Lock' or Lock No 9 : -- 1) Height relative to ODN of the top/upper edge of the moveable barrier gate when in the fully lowered position. 2) Is there a fixed gauge board in the vicinity of the moveable barrier gate that gives the depth of water over the gate when in the fully lowered position ? Signed, A.K.Dunkley (Canal & River Transport Services) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Today, four days later, having assigned a 'case number' to the enquiry, and spoken to the 'operational team', C&RT's Northwest Orifice replied with this :- Re: [CASE:1238480] Ribble Link Navigational Information
Good Afternoon. Thank you for taking your time to contact the Canal & River Trust. With regards to your recent enquiry, I have spoken with our engineers who have looked over our records and have answered the following: 1) Effective height in relation to Ordnance Datum Newlyn [ODN] of Half-tide Barrier on the Ribble Link when in fully raised/closed position. 3000mm ODN 2) Height in relation to ODN of the lower/outer cill of Lock No.8 on the Ribble Link. 1500mm ODN 3) Least depth of water in navigation channel between the Half-tide Barrier and the tail of Lock No.8 when the Half-tide Barrier is in the fully raised/closed position. 900mm To confirm we do have a gauge board and down of the sea gate for passage. If you have any other enquiries please do not hesitate to contact Canal & River Trust via enquiries.northwest@canalrivertrust.org.uk or on 03030404040 where a member of the team will be happy to help. Kind Regards ________________________________________________________________________________________ No need to look any further for the real reason why the Ribble Link is only open to navigation for 66 days throughout the whole of this year, . . and only in one direction at a time, on any one of those 66 days.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 25, 2024 12:43:32 GMT
In post < thunderboat.boards.net/post/395943/thread > I said " I'll deal with the other points you've raised after we've got your misconceptions about times for penning out at Tarleton straightened out.". It appears from the post quoted above that your misconceptions are far from straightened out, and you've yet to grasp the basic essentials of how to work round tides and tide times in rivers and estuaries. C&RT too, have little to no understanding of the basic principles and practices that really must not be deviated from or ignored. Lack of the necessary sound background knowledge, and being neither willing nor able to adapt to or make the best use of whatever circumstances and conditions prevail on the day is not a formula for the successful planning of safe and efficient routine tidal passage making. The two questions you ask above, and the answers to them, aren't applicable to planning Tarleton to Preston passages. The last couple of miles of the Douglas (Astland/Asland), on the last of the Ebb or around local LW, is no place for canal pleasure craft crewed by amateur part timers unfamiliar with tidal estuaries to be messing about. On mean tides or bigger, there's usually a fairly big fast moving tidal bore in the Ribble, . . comparable with the Trent Aegre from around Owston Ferry and on up to Gainsborough. There are also numerous sandbanks and shoals, many of which dry out at local LW, extending a good mile or more up the Douglas from Astland Light. The last few hundred yards of the Douglas, including the scoured out deepwater channel that runs close to the training wall, is almost like a mirror image of the Trent in the area of South Trent, North Trent, and Apex Lights. The question of dredging doesn't arise. The deepwater channel in the Ribble was dredged regularly when shipping was still using Preston Docks, . . but the lower reaches of the Douglas, all the way down to Astland Light, were always left to the process of natural scouring, in the same way the Trent is left to scour out the deepwater channel itself from Cliff End, past Middle Sand, to Apex Light. The only safe, practical, and efficient option for shallow draught pleasure craft making the Tarleton to Preston passage is to pen out into the river Douglas as soon as possible after arriving at Tarleton. This can be done at any time during the period of anything up to 16 hours out of every whole tidal day* during which there is sufficient depth of water in the lock tail and over the outer cill for them. Once in the river, they can, and should, move the short distance downriver to the boatyard, and wait on the boatyard floating stages in the river Douglas for the Flood (tide) that's going to take them up the Ribble and into Savick Brook. Making use of a few minutes out of those many hours of opportunity, by penning out into the river as soon as possible after arrival at Tarleton means, in effect, that you don't 'use up' any of one tide at all. It's the next tide - one tide only - that's taken up with the Tarleton to Preston passage. Unlike the ridiculous C&RT booking/scheduling arrangements that waste time, and one whole tide, by making you wait in the canal at Tarleton for the remainder of the day on which you arrive there, . . if you pen out into river as soon after arriving at Tarleton as you possibly can, then you're all set to catch the next day's tide - one tide only - up the Ribble to Preston, . . at exactly the right time. Catching the Flood running up to Preston at exactly the right time - which is NOT possible if you follow C&RT's Mickey Mouse and potentially quite risky scheduling for penning out into the river at Tarleton - means that you'll have the Flood under you all the way upriver from Astland Light, and you'll be turning into the Savick Brook's Ribble outfall on a rising tide, which rules out any possibility of having to divert to Preston Docks Marina, and having to wait, . . and pay, . . overnight in there for the next day's first tide to get you the mile and a bit back down river and into the so-called 'Ribble Link'. * Average duration 24 hrs 51 mins. Ok so I think what you are saying is that instead of waiting for the flood to lock onto the Douglas, you lock onto it earlier, during the lengthy period when there is enough water to do so. You then can cruise down to the boatyard without having to punch the flood. From the boatyard, you still have to wait for the flood but of course it is earlier. You still have to punch the flood to Astland lamp, but it is obviously a shorter distance. So the saving comprises 2 elements, one being the earlier flood at the boatyard and the other being the shorter distance to punch the flood to Astland. With the flood being fairly short lived I guess it could well be that the flood has expired before you get to Astland lamp. But then that last point applies even more to departing Tarleton on the flood. So although it isn’t going to make a huge difference, even an hour earlier arrival at Savick is going to virtually eliminate the possibility of having to divert to Preston, and / or increase the number of days when the transit is feasible. The fly in the ointment being that there has to be space and permission to tie up at the boatyard. I doubt that would be free and the boatyard might not be prepared to guarantee space months in advance. I’m not sure how many boats typically make the transit, but narrowboats take up a lot of space even when rafted. The first sentence of the above reply is broadly correct, . . but takes no account of many vital considerations and/or variables. Included in those vital considerations and/or variables, for instance, is the depth of water in the lock tail and over the outer cill at local LW at Tarleton. In anything but exceptional wind and atmospheric pressure conditions, and with little to no 'fresh' coming down the river Douglas there's no depth to speak of, . . the lock tail and outer cill virtually dry/bare out at local LW. Regarding the incorrect presumptions and concerns over the time of arrival of the Flood at the boatyard compared with Flood at Tarleton Sea Lock, and the unnecessary concerns over having to stem the Flood from the boatyard to the Astland Light. The time difference between Flood at the boatyard and Flood at Tarleton Sea Lock is negligible, . . 5 minutes or less. Also, the Flood runs up much slower in the last 2 miles of the Douglas, due to the much increased width of the lower reaches. The crucial factor is getting underway, from the layover mooring at the boatyard, at exactly the right time in relation to the first of the Flood, or the tidal bore, beginning to run up the Douglas. Doing so leaves ample time to make the entrance into the Savick Brook outfall on a rising tide, . . having been pushed upriver all the way from Astland Light by that same tide. Lay by mooring space at the boatyard wasn't a problem when I last spoke with them, and I see no reason why it should be now or in the future. There are long lengths of normally unoccupied floating stages, extending from the boatyard round the bend in the river. As for your concerns about the cost of a one tide layover on the river stages, . . the boatyard don't want anything near as much as what Preston Docks Marina will charge you, . . if you're left with no choice but to overnight in there on solely on account of C&RT's sheer unprofessionalism and incompetence in forcing you into making the river passage at the wrong time, at the wrong state of the tide, . . and on waters that are NOT under C&RT authority or control.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 25, 2024 17:47:25 GMT
Any news from the police investigating the two mindless idiots libel prosecution case Tony? You obviously pay far too much attention to the tripe posted by the (more than two) mindless idiots to whom you might have intended to refer. Conversly, you haven't been paying anything like enough attention to what I've actually said. There is no Police investigation into any potential "libel prosecution", . . and nor would or should there ever be any such investigation. Libel is a civil wrong, not a criminal offence, and does not therefore fall within the remit of the Police to investigate. The Police have in fact been provided with much unchallengeable documented evidence of persistent and continuing on-line harassment and stalking, over a considerable period of time, under specific sections and provisions of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, . . to which there is no viable defence available. No 'investigation' has been, or will be necessary. The mindless idiots who were the subject of your query, have themselves provided the Police with all the evidence needed for prosecution and conviction. You'll find further enlightenment in this post :- thunderboat.boards.net/post/396392/thread. . . and in the full text of the 1997 Act, available via this link, . . and by finding someone who's reasonably intelligent and has a good enough grasp of written and spoken English to be able to read and explain it to you :- www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/contents
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Post by on Apr 25, 2024 20:09:12 GMT
At school there was a hilarious joke 'Beans means fartz' a play on the advertising slogan 'Beans means Heinz'
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Post by dogless on Apr 25, 2024 20:43:21 GMT
At school there was a hilarious joke 'Beans means fartz' a play on the advertising slogan 'Beans means Heinz' Yes ... but what was the hilarious joke ? Rog
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