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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2023 8:11:06 GMT
Thanks. It seems very popular at present, certainly amongst liveaboards, but I couldn't get my head around what was going on. Unsurprising being an electrical idiot š Rog Even done in a bodgey way it is still a game changer in terms of need to run engine or generators. As you have discovered, solar can fulfil most needs in summer but not in winter. Gone are the days of hours running the engine with 10A going into the sulky LA batteries. And of course the Li has at least 10 times the life of cheap LA.
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Post by kris on Aug 7, 2023 8:14:29 GMT
Properly as in having the battery BMS communicate with the charging mechanisms (alternator, mains battery charger etc), temperature regulation of the alternator, and temperature protection for the batteries to prevent charging at too low or too high temperatures. Also if you have a big alternator, a means to reduce alternator load at low rpm so the engine and drive belt donāt struggle. Debatable. Whilst Iām not supporting the thin wire method, Iāve had nothing to do with it. The system Iām still installing regulating the voltage of the alternator will work just as well as the system you talk about. Iāve already talked to Ed about it and heās used the passive regulators Iāve got and there are no issues other than the starter battery will never get fully charged by the alternators.This will need a regular top up charge from a battery charger. But it will do the same as the system you claim is proper without all the complication.
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Post by dogless on Aug 7, 2023 8:18:22 GMT
Still not a cheap option though ... cheaper maybe.
Just discussing with a mate who's just had solar fitted after 21 years of boat ownership, how lovely it is to sit on mornings like these watching the batteries charge without listening to the engine.
He's always been an everyday cruiser, so never bothered with solar.
Then his travel power system died so he was suddenly operating on a single alternator ... the push he needed and he got Ed Shiers to fit two 425w panels.
He can now, at his leisure, get his travel power fixed ... but he's found the solar (even on rainy days) has fulfilled his requirements.
Rog
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2023 8:23:01 GMT
Properly as in having the battery BMS communicate with the charging mechanisms (alternator, mains battery charger etc), temperature regulation of the alternator, and temperature protection for the batteries to prevent charging at too low or too high temperatures. Also if you have a big alternator, a means to reduce alternator load at low rpm so the engine and drive belt donāt struggle. Debatable. Whilst Iām not supporting the thin wire method, Iāve had nothing to do with it. The system Iām still installing regulating the voltage of the alternator will work just as well as the system you talk about. Iāve already talked to Ed about it and heās used the passive regulators Iāve got and there are no issues other than the starter battery will never get fully charged by the alternators.This will need a regular top up charge from a battery charger. But it will do the same as the system you claim is proper without all the complication. Well not really because your setup will require manual intervention. This is day to day complication. Itās true that my system is very complicated to design, but it does not require any human intervention and thus is extremely simple on a day to day basis, and that was the main design criteria. It just does its thing in the background. In your case, there is just you using it so you will be fine, but itās not a solution that would work for everybody. The other thing to bear in mind is the level of redundancy. These drop in systems have a BMS shutoff capability that is really designed as an āemergency cutoffā to prevent excursion into a seriously damaging region. Whereas for optimum life one wants to keep li well clear of these regions. So the correct way to do it is to have the charging sources all controlled to avoid excursion into the limiting regions, and keep the BMS disconnect as an emergency backup rather than as the normal way to control things.
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Post by kris on Aug 7, 2023 8:23:51 GMT
Still not a cheap option though ... cheaper maybe. Just discussing with a mate who's just had solar fitted after 21 years of boat ownership, how lovely it is to sit on mornings like these watching the batteries charge without listening to the engine. He's always been an everyday cruiser, so never bothered with solar. Then his travel power system died so he was suddenly operating on a single alternator ... the push he needed and he got Ed Sheirs to fit two 425w panels. He can now, at his leisure, get his travel power fixed ... but he's found the solar (even on rainy days) has fulfilled his requirements. Rog Ed shires is your man to fit lithiumās , if your unsure yourself. Itās as big an improvement as adding solar panels. I donāt understand anybody who doesnāt have solar on a boat nowadays livaboard or leasure boater. As I understand it the stick on panels have improved. I was talking to someone with a freeman with 520w of stick on solar. They looked really neat and didnāt detract from the boat at all.
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2023 8:25:26 GMT
Still not a cheap option though ... cheaper maybe. Just discussing with a mate who's just had solar fitted after 21 years of boat ownership, how lovely it is to sit on mornings like these watching the batteries charge without listening to the engine. He's always been an everyday cruiser, so never bothered with solar. Then his travel power system died so he was suddenly operating on a single alternator ... the push he needed and he got Ed Shiers to fit two 425w panels. He can now, at his leisure, get his travel power fixed ... but he's found the solar (even on rainy days) has fulfilled his requirements. Rog It is cheap in the long run due to the long life of Li batteries. Presuming you are going to live that long / keep the boat that long. Plus with LA you have that inevitable decline into lower and lower capacity, trying to resist the inevitable need to replace with associated cost and hassle. Whereas the Li just works as new until you die!
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2023 8:28:43 GMT
Still not a cheap option though ... cheaper maybe. Just discussing with a mate who's just had solar fitted after 21 years of boat ownership, how lovely it is to sit on mornings like these watching the batteries charge without listening to the engine. He's always been an everyday cruiser, so never bothered with solar. Then his travel power system died so he was suddenly operating on a single alternator ... the push he needed and he got Ed Sheirs to fit two 425w panels. He can now, at his leisure, get his travel power fixed ... but he's found the solar (even on rainy days) has fulfilled his requirements. Rog Ed shires is your man to fit lithiumās , if youāre unsure yourself. Itās as big an improvement as adding solar panels. I donāt understand anybody who doesnāt have solar on a boat nowadays livaboard or leasure boater. As I understand it the stick on panels have improved. I was talking to someone with a freeman with 520w of stick on solar. They looked really neat and didnāt detract from the boat at all. We donāt have solar because it looks ugly. But since we cruise every day we really donāt need it. Couple of days ago when the weather was grim we didnāt cruise for a day (ie moored for 2 nights) and still had 30% capacity left despite prodigious use of the air fryer, electric kettle, toaster etc. If we tended to cruise less or were liveaboards, solar would be a no-brainer.
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2023 8:30:08 GMT
Stick on panels on GRP are fine because itās cool. Stick on panels on dark painted steel much less so, due to the heat.
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Post by kris on Aug 7, 2023 8:30:10 GMT
Debatable. Whilst Iām not supporting the thin wire method, Iāve had nothing to do with it. The system Iām still installing regulating the voltage of the alternator will work just as well as the system you talk about. Iāve already talked to Ed about it and heās used the passive regulators Iāve got and there are no issues other than the starter battery will never get fully charged by the alternators.This will need a regular top up charge from a battery charger. But it will do the same as the system you claim is proper without all the complication. Well not really because your setup will require manual intervention. This is day to day complication. Itās true that my system is very complicated to design, but it does not require any human intervention and thus is extremely simple on a day to day basis, and that was the main design criteria. It just does its thing in the background. In your case, there is just you using it so you will be fine, but itās not a solution that would work for everybody. The other thing to bear in mind is the level of redundancy. These drop in systems have a BMS shutoff capability that is really designed as an āemergency cutoffā to prevent excursion into a seriously damaging region. Whereas for optimum life one wants to keep li well clear of these regions. So the correct way to do it is to have the charging sources all controlled to avoid excursion into the limiting regions, and keep the BMS disconnect as an emergency backup rather than as the normal way to control things. Bullshit. Whatās complicated about having it charging the lithiums or not. Your system has a lot of complicated equipment to go wrong. Yes my system is setup so the Lifepo4 never goes below 20% or above 80%. You know full well that a lot of the kerfuflle with the bsc is because they donāt seem to understand the difference between the different chemistries.
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 7, 2023 8:33:15 GMT
Well not really because your setup will require manual intervention. This is day to day complication. Itās true that my system is very complicated to design, but it does not require any human intervention and thus is extremely simple on a day to day basis, and that was the main design criteria. It just does its thing in the background. In your case, there is just you using it so you will be fine, but itās not a solution that would work for everybody. The other thing to bear in mind is the level of redundancy. These drop in systems have a BMS shutoff capability that is really designed as an āemergency cutoffā to prevent excursion into a seriously damaging region. Whereas for optimum life one wants to keep li well clear of these regions. So the correct way to do it is to have the charging sources all controlled to avoid excursion into the limiting regions, and keep the BMS disconnect as an emergency backup rather than as the normal way to control things. Bullshit. Whatās complicated about having it charging the lithiums or not. Your system has a lot of complicated equipment to go wrong. Yes my system is setup so the Lifepo4 never goes below 20% or above 80%. You know full well that a lot of the kerfuflle with the bsc is because they donāt seem to understand the difference between the different chemistries. Since we are having one of you style of conversations I will just say you are talking utter bullshit. There, that has raised the tone of the conversation. Did I mention bullshit? I might have forgotten to, but anyway you are full of it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2023 8:36:06 GMT
Generally what people are doing is to put a Li battery in parallel with a lead acid battery. Because the chemistry of the Li is different, it tends to sit at a more constant and higher voltage that the LA - during discharge, the Li remains above 13v until it is close to flat, and therefore all the current comes out of the Li and the LA remains fully charged. For recharge, people use a standard 14.4v alternator which is 3.6v/cell which is ok. If the Li battery overcharges, its internal BMS will shut it off. This ādumpsā the alternator load but no worries, the LA is still in place to absorb the transient. As you say Li does take the full alternator output until the battery is virtually full, so the alternator will overheat and fry itself in fairly short order. To get around this people use a long length of not particularly thick wire to add some resistance, so the alternator is working less hard and doesnāt overheat. Exactly how I have done mine. The added bonus is the batteries can be in the cabin area, thus keeping snug and warm during winter. 2 years in, and everything is still hunky dory. Also passed boat safety with no issues.
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Post by kris on Aug 7, 2023 8:41:28 GMT
Bullshit. Whatās complicated about having it charging the lithiums or not. Your system has a lot of complicated equipment to go wrong. Yes my system is setup so the Lifepo4 never goes below 20% or above 80%. You know full well that a lot of the kerfuflle with the bsc is because they donāt seem to understand the difference between the different chemistries. Since we are having one of you style of conversations I will just say you are talking utter bullshit. There, that has raised the tone of the conversation. Did I mention bullshit? I might have forgotten to, but anyway you are full of it. I thought you might accuse me of being homophobic? You do know stuff nick, where you fuck up is getting on your high horse and thinking nobody else knows anything and your the only one who is right. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Ps Iāll always call out bullshit when I smell it. You didnāt answer my question, whatās complicated about having a system that either charges the lithium or not?
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Post by dogless on Aug 7, 2023 8:41:46 GMT
Living without an inverter, air-fryer, electric kettle, toaster, television, and other electrical tools I have no need for more power, but understand others see these things as necessary.
It was just an interest in understanding what the 'drop-in' system was, thanks.
Rog
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Post by kris on Aug 7, 2023 8:44:54 GMT
Living without an inverter, air-fryer, electric kettle, toaster, television, and other electrical tools I have no need for more power, but understand others see these things as necessary. It was just an interest in understanding what the 'drop-in' system was, thanks. Rog Yes I suppose for low power users, itās not really worth the hassle. I bet your solar panels have made a big difference to your life? They will also prolong the life of your lead acid batteries, depending on looking after them of course.
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Post by ā on Aug 7, 2023 8:53:20 GMT
Living without an inverter, air-fryer, electric kettle, toaster, television, and other electrical tools I have no need for more power, but understand others see these things as necessary. It was just an interest in understanding what the 'drop-in' system was, thanks. Rog Drop-in just refers to the fact the battery is the same shape and has the same charging voltages as the lead acid battery it is replacing.
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