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Post by naughtyfox on Sept 2, 2018 6:13:02 GMT
"Increasing number and frequency". Do we have a list of incidents per year going back, say, 30 years, for canal-designed craft having or causing issues on the River Thames between Limehouse Basin and Brentford?
What have the PLA done about the commercial boats that (allegedly) been swerving threateningly towards boats they "don't like"? Nothing.
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Post by JohnV on Sept 2, 2018 6:59:01 GMT
What have the PLA done about the commercial boats that (allegedly) been swerving threateningly towards boats they "don't like"? Nothing. I suspect that any reports of commercial boats swerving threateningly towards boats they don't like is probably more in the eye of the beholder than fact. Some commercial skippers find private boats on busy commercial waters a pita and let's be honest a few of them truly are. However they are professionals and cannot afford to have complaints upheld against them, They could end up not allowed to operate on that section of the river and the PLA keep a very sharp eye out for offenders. (PLA have a local knowledge ticket system without which it is not possible to operate a commercial craft on a particular stretch of the river) I believe that it far more likely that they allow adequate clearance (in their eyes) to avoid accidents, just as they would to another commercial craft. This in the eyes of someone unused to busy commercial waters with lots of high speed craft around, probably looks terrifyingly close. I would expect any incidents would far more be a case of not being courteous and allowing a canal craft a much greater clearance than is needed "just to be safe"
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Post by TonyDunkley on Sept 2, 2018 7:05:59 GMT
"Increasing number and frequency". Do we have a list of incidents per year going back, say, 30 years, for canal-designed craft having or causing issues on the River Thames between Limehouse Basin and Brentford? What have the PLA done about the commercial boats that (allegedly) been swerving threateningly towards boats they "don't like"? Nothing. The history of any incidents going back over any period measured in years isn't what the PLA is concerned about, . . . it's the 8 x incidents in the last few weeks involving pleasure craft inbound from Limehouse which the London VTS hadn't been advised of, and/or were underway in the main deepwater channel, or using the main working arch of a bridge.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Sept 2, 2018 7:19:42 GMT
What have the PLA done about the commercial boats that (allegedly) been swerving threateningly towards boats they "don't like"? Nothing. I suspect that any reports of commercial boats swerving threateningly towards boats they don't like is probably more in the eye of the beholder than fact. Some commercial skippers find private boats on busy commercial waters a pita and let's be honest a few of them truly are. However they are professionals and cannot afford to have complaints upheld against them, They could end up not allowed to operate on that section of the river and the PLA keep a very sharp eye out for offenders. (PLA have a local knowledge ticket system without which it is not possible to operate a commercial craft on a particular stretch of the river) I believe that it far more likely that they allow adequate clearance (in their eyes) to avoid accidents, just as they would to another commercial craft. This in the eyes of someone unused to busy commercial waters with lots of high speed craft around, probably looks terrifyingly close. I would expect any incidents would far more be a case of not being courteous and allowing a canal craft a much greater clearance than is needed "just to be safe" Spot-on, John, you've just saved me from typing out something along very similar lines. Whilst it's undoubtedly true that some 'incidents' won't have been any more serious than the pleasure craft skippers needing a change of underwear, the 8 x incidents that are causing the PLA so much concern at present all arise from improper/inappropriate use of the main deepwater channel and/or the main working arch of bridges.
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Post by Telemachus on Sept 2, 2018 7:22:42 GMT
So does the PLA produce any sort of “idiots guide” to pleasure boating on the tidal Thames by amateurs? If not, surely that would be an easy first step to reducing the problems you allude to.
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Post by JohnV on Sept 2, 2018 7:26:19 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 7:27:08 GMT
"Increasing number and frequency". Do we have a list of incidents per year going back, say, 30 years, for canal-designed craft having or causing issues on the River Thames between Limehouse Basin and Brentford? What have the PLA done about the commercial boats that (allegedly) been swerving threateningly towards boats they "don't like"? Nothing. The history of any incidents going back over any period measured in years isn't what the PLA is concerned about, . . . it's the 8 x incidents in the last few weeks involving pleasure craft inbound from Limehouse which the London VTS hadn't been advised of, and/or were underway in the main deepwater channel, or using the main working arch of a bridge. Sorry if you’ve already answered this somewhere else, but is there a similar protocol where CRT informs a river or port authority of entering leisure boats on other rivers (egTrent) or crossings (eg Severn mouth)? Whilst it seems a sensible idea for CRT to do this, I can’t help feeling that the skipper of, say, a narrowboat should be ultimately responsible for informing the PLA. At least it cuts down the risk of the middle man not doing their job.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Sept 2, 2018 7:31:01 GMT
So does the PLA produce any sort of “idiots guide” to pleasure boating on the tidal Thames by amateurs? If not, surely that would be an easy first step to reducing the problems you allude to. I've already covered this point earlier in this thread and in the ''Water restrictions now on Oxford canal", where the matter first came to light.
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Post by Telemachus on Sept 2, 2018 7:56:11 GMT
So does the PLA produce any sort of “idiots guide” to pleasure boating on the tidal Thames by amateurs? If not, surely that would be an easy first step to reducing the problems you allude to. I've already covered this point earlier in this thread and in the ''Water restrictions now on Oxford canal", where the matter first came to light. Sorry, must have missed it. Never done the tidal Thames so never had cause to look for it.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Sept 2, 2018 7:57:28 GMT
The history of any incidents going back over any period measured in years isn't what the PLA is concerned about, . . . it's the 8 x incidents in the last few weeks involving pleasure craft inbound from Limehouse which the London VTS hadn't been advised of, and/or were underway in the main deepwater channel, or using the main working arch of a bridge. Sorry if you’ve already answered this somewhere else, but is there a similar protocol where CRT informs a river or port authority of entering leisure boats on other rivers (egTrent) or crossings (eg Severn mouth)? Whilst it seems a sensible idea for CRT to do this, I can’t help feeling that the skipper of, say, a narrowboat should be ultimately responsible for informing the PLA. At least it cuts down the risk of the middle man not doing their job. As far as I'm aware the C&RT, as the Statutory Harbour Authority at Sharpness, do advise the Gloucester Harbour Authority of vessels entering the river from Sharpness Dock. Keadby on the lower Trent is an entirely different set of circumstances. There's no need and no point in advising ABP's Spurn VTS about inbound pleasure craft entering their waters at Keadby because half a mile on upriver they leave the commercially active part of the river again as soon as they pass Gunness Wharf and under Keadby Bridge, and as they're departing Keadby on the first half an hour or so of the Flood, there isn't enough water in the river at that time for any of the shipping at the Gunness or Keadby wharves to float or get underway.
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Post by naughtyfox on Sept 2, 2018 8:19:43 GMT
It seems simple enough to me, you should need permission from the PLA before entering their waters (the Thames from Limehouse to Brentford in this case), in which you have signed that you have read and understood their rules, regulations and safety guidance, and that your boat (and yourself) are fit for this trip. Anyone found without permission gets fined, and anyone without permission is travelling without the cover of their insurance company. There could be a small charge for obtaining this permission, say, £20. The Anderton Lift charges £5 per booking. They have these checks before the Harecastle and Standedge tunnels, why not for Limehouse/Brentford?
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Post by naughtyfox on Sept 2, 2018 8:25:00 GMT
ps - I'm running through these videos to check out our route before we do it, very handy for exploring the terrain before we get there. Keeping my finger or tip of pen on the places as we go through on the Pearson's guide whilst watching the videos. So that we know what's coming, what the villages/towns look like, and some idea of if the pubs are any good (terrible reviews first on Tripadvisor, of course!). I now know how to get to Pendeford Morrisons from the canal, and that it's open from 10am on a Sunday.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 8:25:26 GMT
I suspect the PLA is aware of most boats which have left Limehouse as there are cameras about which I believe they have access to. The problem is more with other vessels possibly not being aware and of course narrow boats have a habit of being painted in dark colours like green topsides and black below gunnels. This coupled with it being a low profile vessel can make narrow boats difficult to see.
I wondered about using an orange flashing beacon but these are actually used by high speed craft so there would be confusion.
The best solution would be to require all boater skippers to radio VTS on CH14 when approaching tower bridge and again when passing Wandsworth Bridge or vice versa. Outward bound tugs call VTS and say "GPS Anglia clear of bridges" or similar to indicate they are below tower bridge. If the signal allows it. The point is that even if VTS does not pick up the transmission any vessels listening on CH14 (all boats should be) will hear this if they are in range. The protocol would have to be a call then wait then if no response a quick outline of vessel and inward or outward bound and status.
All a bit technical I suppose.
Telephoning VTS does not give any other river users any information.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 8:37:04 GMT
It seems simple enough to me, you should need permission from the PLA before entering their waters (the Thames from Limehouse to Brentford in this case), in which you have signed that you have read and understood their rules, regulations and safety guidance, and that your boat (and yourself) are fit for this trip. Anyone found without permission gets fined, and anyone without permission is travelling without the cover of their insurance company. There could be a small charge for obtaining this permission, say, £20. The Anderton Lift charges £5 per booking. They have these checks before the Harecastle and Standedge tunnels, why not for Limehouse/Brentford? I think the big issue here though Foxy is lack of experience navigating what is potentially hazardous waters. As we know people sign off stuff without reading it properly all of the time. All of the professional skippers on that part of the Thames have probably had official training for a reason. It’s a tricky one really as we all get lots of excitement from risk, it’s just whether taking that risk is reasonable or not. I’ve only ever done the stretch between Brenford and Teddington but if I ever decide to do the stretch below, I’d probably seek help from the St Pancras cruusing club who I believe run convoys through that stretch.
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Post by naughtyfox on Sept 2, 2018 8:42:58 GMT
I don't see the point of the risk in a flat-bottomed boat, of attempting to plough through ferocious waves. Canal boats are for canals. Why not turn left and head out into the North Sea for adventure in a narrowboat, if you enjoy risk? Have any narrowboats (or wide beams) ever flipped over and sunk? edit - quick Google search doesn't come up with much about narrowboat accidents on the Thames between Limehouse and Brentford. Just this: " The PLA is citing this as the reasons for the ban - saying it was prompted by an accident where a hire boat was swept against Dove Pier. Canal hire website Canal Junction (link below) said: "the boat was being held broadside across the bows of a large moored houseboat by strong tides and gusty winds sweeping round the bend of the river just above Hammersmith Bridge." Canal Junction also said there had been many similar incidents in the past few years and that in this case the RNLI lifeboat had to be called to take the four passengers off. " Source: www.insuremyworld.co.uk/articleboatHire-boats-banned-from-Thames
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