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Post by phoenix on Nov 18, 2016 8:44:39 GMT
I have uploaded the revised drawing, this looks simpler does all look OK I have shown the earth wiring exactly as is on the boat and will join all the earth leads at a terminal block inside the switch
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Post by tonyqj on Nov 18, 2016 10:05:42 GMT
Yes that works but you don't need two RCDs. See Gibbo's design that I linked earlier for inspiration. Basically you switch the supply prior to the RCD.
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Post by phoenix on Nov 18, 2016 10:32:04 GMT
Thanks
I had not gone sufficiently far down the page to see these before that would be even better of course
but as the 2 rcds are already there it is easier to leave them which I presume will do no harm
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 18, 2016 10:38:31 GMT
As I mentioned before I'd just be slightly worried as to whether the Victron, in an unpowered state, has any continuity between N and E. It probably doesn't, but worth checking. Once you have disconnected all the wiring. You'd just need to put a meter on ohms or continuity range, between its N and E terminals.
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 18, 2016 10:39:28 GMT
Thanks but but as the 2 rcds are already there and it is easier to leave them in is there any harm in leaving No, no harm in leaving both in circuit if you wish.
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Post by smileypete on Nov 18, 2016 10:40:45 GMT
I have uploaded the revised drawing, this looks simpler does all look OK I have shown the earth wiring exactly as is on the boat and will join all the earth leads at a terminal block inside the switch Looks much better. I would also ensure there's a direct link to hull from the neutral earth bond at the isolation transformer output. Otherwise if the earth connection from IT to combi gets broken somehow, you'll still have power but the RCD won't work. This may be possible by adding a connection to hull from an external earthing point on the IT chassis, depending on the internal wiring of the IT. The install instructions for the IT should cover this, while we're at it do check that the manufacturers install instructions for all equipment have been properly followed. As Tony mentioned you can just have one RCD protecting the sockets, but it does mean all wiring prior to that won't be protected, and TBH RCDs/RCBOs aren't that expensive. Might be helpful to have a DC ammeter in a prominent place in case the combi gets left in inverter mode by accident. If you can't easily find a registered spark in France how about getting a french speaker to contact some local Victron agents to see if they can recommend on? Because I can't be 100% confident of anyone's ability from a short forum dicussion, I still have to recommend that non trivial mains work is done or checked by a suitably experienced and registered electrician. I really don't like giving advice on safety critical stuff, but better than no advice I s'pose...
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Post by smileypete on Nov 18, 2016 10:43:59 GMT
As I mentioned before I'd just be slightly worried as to whether the Victron, in an unpowered state, has any continuity between N and E. It probably doesn't, but worth checking. Once you have disconnected all the wiring. You'd just need to put a meter on ohms or continuity range, between its N and E terminals. As I understand it, when you disconnect mains from the inlet, it isolates the inlet (and outlet?) connections, then the grounding relay connects the outlet neutral to earth, THEN the outlet connected to the inverter. Must be a couple of interlinked relays that do this. But I agree it could worth checking. Then I can't see that the grounding relay would connect the inlet neutral connection to earth, or it could cause havoc with shoreline connections. So I can't see how the grounding relay will affect things.
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Post by phoenix on Nov 18, 2016 10:52:50 GMT
As I mentioned before I'd just be slightly worried as to whether the Victron, in an unpowered state, has any continuity between N and E. It probably doesn't, but worth checking. Once you have disconnected all the wiring. You'd just need to put a meter on ohms or continuity range, between its N and E terminals. I already have a 4pole switch so I will revert to switching both neg and live on the supply to the victron so it will just be left permanently connected to earth but no other connection in or out, I presume that would be certain to work?
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Post by phoenix on Nov 18, 2016 10:59:02 GMT
I have uploaded the revised drawing, this looks simpler does all look OK I have shown the earth wiring exactly as is on the boat and will join all the earth leads at a terminal block inside the switch Looks much better. I would also ensure there's a direct link to hull from the neutral earth bond at the isolation transformer output. Otherwise if the earth connection from IT to combi gets broken somehow, you'll still have power but the RCD won't work. Because I can't be 100% confident of anyone's ability from a short forum dicussion, I still have to recommend that non trivial mains work is done or checked by a suitably experienced and registered electrician. I really don't like giving advice on safety critical stuff, but better than no advice I s'pose... Fair points, I will look to see how to get another hull bonding point nearer the IT. Is there any simple way to check if the various rcbos are doing their job
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Post by smileypete on Nov 18, 2016 19:11:02 GMT
Fair points, I will look to see how to get another hull bonding point nearer the IT. Is there any simple way to check if the various rcbos are doing their job The RCBOs will have a test button which should be tried every now and then, BUT it only checks the integrity and sensitivity of the RCBO itself and not the integrity of the earth connection.To check the earth connection one way is to get a cheap plug in socket tester that helps tell if the earth is connected or whether it's 'floating' ie isolated. There are more sophisticated testers that can introduce a calibrated earth leakage and trip an upstream RCD. I s'pose an alternative is wire a test lamp to the earth and live connections on a plug. (One night I was putting a plug on a plastic fan heater while listening to the parents talking away on the phone. Got off the phone, plugged the heater in and plunged the boat into darkness - no light OR heat! Turns out I wired the heater between L and E instead of L and N, dammit!!! )
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Post by JohnV on Nov 18, 2016 20:12:15 GMT
Fair points, I will look to see how to get another hull bonding point nearer the IT. Is there any simple way to check if the various rcbos are doing their job plugged the heater in and plunged the boat into darkness - no light OR heat! Turns out I wired the heater between L and E instead of L and N, dammit!!! ) I think most of us have that Tee shirt (or similar)
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Post by phoenix on Nov 19, 2016 8:06:27 GMT
Fair points, I will look to see how to get another hull bonding point nearer the IT. Is there any simple way to check if the various rcbos are doing their job I s'pose an alternative is wire a test lamp to the earth and live connections on a plug. That sounds a pretty positive test, thanks again
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Post by cuthound on Nov 19, 2016 10:58:57 GMT
As for getting a sparks in it is a bit difficult here their English is good but if i did find a sparks I am not sure I could explain the whole thing! If you give him a diagram showing exactly what you want, any electrician worth his salt should be able to understand it and wire to it.
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Post by phoenix on Nov 20, 2016 8:11:59 GMT
connecting the wires is the easy part, it is the diagram, making sure that all is going to be connected where it should be and not where it shouldn't that is hard
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Post by naughtyfox on Nov 20, 2016 9:12:30 GMT
Probably off on a tangent but I thought I'd throw in my tuppenceworth: We have a small 350W inverter which we use for charging our phones and cameras - don't need it for anything else. We have a shoreline and 240v mains electricity in the boat when we're connected, and a battery charger which works automatically. I noticed last year that there is a plug, visible in the first photo on the left; in the second photo it is below the black battery switch. I had wondered about possible conflict when we had this on, and the engine running and was told that it's best to have the charger off when the engine is running - the charger senses the batteries are being charged by the alternator and turns itself off, and the alternator senese the charger is charging the batteries and turns itself off - so neither is charging the batteries! Could be rubbish, what do I know? But seems a reasonable theory - so we don't have the engine running with the charger on at the same time. Turning the charger off at the plug with the on/off switch is easy. Does anyone know what that beige box is? The boat used to have solar panels (not these days) and we have been told it's something to do with them. A light still works in this box and we were told this light shows the state of the batteries: green is good, orange is getting a bit iffy, red means you want to start charging them. This sometimes seems to hold, but we have often noticed it's flashing orange when we think the batteries are fully charged, and this last October trip the light was flashing madly red! We decided to ignore it, in the belief that our batteries are OK are driving the boat (alternator new June 2015), and the batteries never seemed to have died (2 leisures from June 2014, starter from 2012). What's that black plug to the left of the beige box? Working on this boat to get it up to scratch I've never had time to investigate our wiring, and certainly am not really very competent to do so. This next Christmas I may have more time. Would it be wise to remove this beige box? I'm sure we can live without such, but then we could put a battery charge state thingy there, so we have some idea what our batteries are like. I have no idea how I'd wire this up, but I expect instructions come with such a unit. We only have a water pump, shower bilge pump, lights and the 350W inverter so we use hardly any electricity. Link to 2 photos: goo.gl/photos/S8wrKJmqSaKhSmkFA
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