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Post by Higgs on Apr 22, 2016 22:31:25 GMT
Corbyns stance is confusing, he disagrees with everything the EU is doing right now but wants to stay in as thats the only way to reform it. Im not so sure, but if we do leave and then at some later date realise what a cock up it is we will then have very little to negotiate with to change the EU and we would even have to surrender the pound to rejoin, not something I want to see happen. Monetary union has been a failure for everyone but Germany and the Benelux states and bankers the world over.
Corbyn is possibly being somewhat naïve. He's still not the steadiest of leaders of the Labour party. I'm not sure he'd find the EU any easier an egg to crack. Fear is a strong force driving the pro EU debate. As for any return, if we leave: to be fully joined, the Euro is the obvious currency and keeping the pound would only display a half-hearted return. In for a penny, and all that. Although I disagree with staying in, I can't see that holding out for the pound makes any sense as a partner.
Trade is no doubt a very important aspect, but I find the whole lopsided trade angle is only one half of it. No one wants to pay tax and business the least, running amok all over governments and playing by its own rarefied rules. The trade angle for me is not going to stop me from casting a no vote. If it isn't the EU calling the shots, it's the US or China or the Oil producing nations or, business. Should we just accept that we're now just a little fart of an island. The more we bow and scrape, the nearer a little fart we become.
If there is a bigger picture that I'm missing, I like to know how 40 years a member of Europe has enriched the lives of its UK citizens. I would consider a strong NHS some sort of a good sign of improvement, not its present disintegration.
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Post by Saltysplash on Apr 23, 2016 3:27:44 GMT
I dont disagree with much of what you say but I do not trust our politicians to do what is best for this country if we are out of the EU. At least you will be about to vote out our politicians, we cant vote out those in power in the EU except for our one chance this coming June
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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 23, 2016 6:55:59 GMT
It's a strange old world we live in. Boris Johnson suggests that Barack Obama is a racist, so the suggestion is made that Boris Johnson is a racist. It's almost as if racist is simply a boo word which has completely lost its meaning and is just used as a perjorative.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 7:31:23 GMT
It's a strange old world we live in. Boris Johnson suggests that Barack Obama is a racist, so the suggestion is made that Boris Johnson is a racist. It's almost as if racist is simply a boo word which has completely lost its meaning and is just used as a perjorative. I've always thought that. Sometimes people use the word because they think they have some special right to be treated differently to others. Ironic really.
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Post by ammodels on Apr 23, 2016 10:32:59 GMT
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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 23, 2016 18:07:13 GMT
We are all 'Racist' but some are more 'Racist' than others. I oppose mass immigration, my views and the views of people like me are the reason that politics is now a totally taboo subject on CWDF. This has nothing to do with "hating foreigners", I have spent most of my working life abroad, precisely because of my love of all things foreign and the opportunity to explore this little world of ours and get paid for doing it. But the simple fact is that I also fear for my children. Wages for the man on the Clapham omnibus are being steadily and relentlessly driven downwards, while housing costs are relentlessly being driven upwards due to the constant diminution of wages for ordinary people. There's no way my kids will have the quality of life that I have. This is all done because people who are already fantastically wealthy spot the opportunity to make even more money by moving a Cadbury's factory to Poland for example. Shortly before he flounced off of CWDF, even Sabcat posted that he was opposed to unrestricted eu migration for exactly the same reasons- this came as a bit of a surprise to me as you can imagine. So no, opposed to immigration, opposed to globalisation but not racist.
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Post by PaulG2 on Apr 23, 2016 19:18:46 GMT
My friend in the USA is angry about the relief for those who took 2nd-mortgages and blew it on fancy cars and luxury goods a few years back. When the crunch came and it was time for them to get kicked out of their houses - as they should have been - the Government stepped in and paid up. Well, the money that was used was from the taxes that hard-working people (my friend, for instance) who DIDN'T hock their dwelling to buy glittery bling-endowed flashy wheels. The conscientious earners supporting the laid-back lifestyle of the squanderers. Got Obama to thank for that one. I can't comment on Medicare as I don't know much about it - I can only re-tell what everyone here probably knows in that I am socialist-minded to an extent and that I approve of a well-run and transparent National Health Service. I would like to see real statistics on how surgeons, doctors, nurses and other staff perform. The old chestnut is the: "Should smokers, druggies and alcoholics get care" - and those others who choose to take health risks (such as skiers breaking their legs)? Your friend sounds like a right-wing asshole who gets his talking points from Rush Limbaugh. First of all, the government didn't pay off people's second mortgages willy nilly. What the government did do is force the people who crashed the economy to restructure a lot of those loans, first and second mortgages. What your benighted friend fails to understand is that the government bailed out the banksters and brokers who crashed our economy, and that bailout was written and approved by a republican administration. So, your hard-working friend is indeed supporting the laid-back lifestyle of some people, but it is the elite 1% that your friend and his right-wing colleagues support. Judging from what your friend said, I imagine s/he's the kind of person that goes around looking for "socialists" in every corner, and finding them in every government program that doesn't directly benefit your friend. In your friends mind, socialism means perks for lazy people. What your friend is too cowardly, and obviously too stupid, to admit or acknowledge is that socialism is everywhere, in every aspect of our lives, and your friend couldn't exist on his own for more than a few weeks. People like your friend refuse to acknowledge that roads, electrical grids, water supplies, sewage systems, the internet - all of those things that we all rely for our daily existence - are all socialist programs. So your friend will drive on our socialist roads and use our socialist utilities while being protected by our socialist police and fire departments - but god forbid that some poor soul who is down on their luck should need a helping hand. Your right-wing friend would just as soon let that unfortunate soul starve to death, rather than let a penny of their taxes help buy a loaf of bread for them. All the while, your friend enjoys all of the socialist infrastructure and institutions that make this an easy place to live, but they are too stupid and too prejudiced to understand that they too benefit from socialism. America, and the world would be much better places without people like your friend.
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Post by PaulG2 on Apr 23, 2016 19:32:30 GMT
Out of the EU, Britain wouldn't be party to TTiP, would they? It's primarily an agreement between the US and the EU. The threat to the NHS would be as a result of an open market being established as part of the TTiP. Basically; meaning the NHS having to be cut loose from the state and having to fight amongst a privatised system of competition. I'm not quite sure how Obama care is supposed to work, but isn't it some kind of state secured protection of the most vulnerable needing health care. That seems like a US version of the NHS.
Obamacare was insurance reform, not health care reform. It essentially makes health insurance available to all Americans, and requires all Americans to have health insurance. A person/family's insurance premiums are based on their income. The government subsidizes part of the insurance premiums to make them affordable.
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Post by ammodels on Apr 23, 2016 20:11:17 GMT
We are all 'Racist' but some are more 'Racist' than others. I oppose mass immigration, my views and the views of people like me are the reason that politics is now a totally taboo subject on CWDF. This has nothing to do with "hating foreigners", I have spent most of my working life abroad, precisely because of my love of all things foreign and the opportunity to explore this little world of ours and get paid for doing it. But the simple fact is that I also fear for my children. Wages for the man on the Clapham omnibus are being steadily and relentlessly driven downwards, while housing costs are relentlessly being driven upwards due to the constant diminution of wages for ordinary people. There's no way my kids will have the quality of life that I have. This is all done because people who are already fantastically wealthy spot the opportunity to make even more money by moving a Cadbury's factory to Poland for example. Shortly before he flounced off of CWDF, even Sabcat posted that he was opposed to unrestricted eu migration for exactly the same reasons- this came as a bit of a surprise to me as you can imagine. So no, opposed to immigration, opposed to globalisation but not racist. It nay surprise you but I dont disagree with any of that.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 23, 2016 21:03:43 GMT
It doesn't surprise me, most people say the same thing if they are being honest.
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Post by ammodels on Apr 23, 2016 21:05:02 GMT
but isnt that just capitalism?
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Post by Higgs on Apr 24, 2016 8:55:34 GMT
I'm not quite sure how Obama care is supposed to work, but isn't it some kind of state secured protection of the most vulnerable needing health care. That seems like a US version of the NHS.
Obamacare was insurance reform, not health care reform. It essentially makes health insurance available to all Americans, and requires all Americans to have health insurance. A person/family's insurance premiums are based on their income. The government subsidizes part of the insurance premiums to make them affordable.
Thanks, I find US politics baffling. Ok, not really an NHS. Subsidizing insurance policies through tax payers' money is different, bar using tax payers' money. It could happen here.
Over a few decades here, the market place is replacing the state. Nationalisation, and the NHS is still one nationalised system here, is based on contributions of tax financing a service that is generally seen to be there for the good of all. Mainly for the general public that can't afford private care. There is one other collective association with a nationalised system, every citizen is a member stakeholder. There is a socialist ethic underpinning such stakeholder participation. Not the flavour of the month in today's money obsessed society.
Obama care does seem to be trying to make the best of a bad system. It is however money that is going to the private sector and the private sector isn't affordable without government aid. It's like our rail system, once British Rail, now in private hands, it is not affordable without state subsidy. The private sector is skimming money off the tax payer and also paying its dividends out to shareholders. And, its customers are no longer stakeholders.
I think it is the Republicans that were complaining about Obamacare. I'm not sure on what principle they were complaining. Whatever the principle, it would be taking aid away from those that could not afford to insure their own healthcare needs.
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Post by smileypete on Apr 24, 2016 16:08:15 GMT
It's like our rail system, once British Rail, now in private hands, it is not affordable without state subsidy. The private sector is skimming money off the tax payer and also paying its dividends out to shareholders. And, its customers are no longer stakeholders. Not quite... I believe the infrastructure is publicly owned and operated and the train operating companies are privately owned and pay for a franchise and need to meet reliability targets in return. Not ideal I know but how far do you take it?
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Post by ammodels on Apr 24, 2016 16:18:26 GMT
Is calling someone "part Kenyan" racist then? Does calling people Flag waving pickaninnies make him racist?
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Post by bills on Apr 24, 2016 17:08:30 GMT
Is calling someone "part Kenyan" racist then? Does calling people Flag waving pickaninnies make him racist? Hm - two days since the post and eight years since the inappropriate comment. Are you trolling the archives to find something to argue about? Can you find a way to make his equally inappropriate Liverpool comment a racist comment too?
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