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Post by JohnV on Dec 16, 2017 7:31:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 9:27:43 GMT
I think sometimes they forget what Labour means.
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Post by peterboat on Dec 16, 2017 14:07:08 GMT
Yes John I agree with everything he said! I watched it on the telly and was nearly throwing things at it!! On the bright side Because of what has happened, some "experts" think that we will end up with a hard Brexit because of labour, and the rebels. They reckon negotiations will have to finish early, and the deal will be rubbish and unsalable to the population, so it will be dumped!! Pefik for me as it teaches these clever idiots not to play with democracy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 14:33:46 GMT
However he misses the point when he talks about 'question 2'. The very fact the terms of Brexit were not defined in the ballot is precisely why we are in the mess we are in now. The simple fact is he will get his wish, we will leave the EU eventually end of. However it might not be the departure he wanted personally but it will be the departure that I would wager many who did actually vote leave will be perfectly happy with. (though of course as this wasn't the way the question was asked we actually will never know for sure. To put it another way the questions wasn't:- Leave (with a hard brexit) or Remain.Nor was it Leave (with a soft brexit ) or Remain.
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Post by peterboat on Dec 16, 2017 16:15:25 GMT
For me it was just leave a deal wasnt on the table and I am not bothered about one so for me the question was very clear and for a lot of people who wanted an end to free movement it was equally clear
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Post by JohnV on Dec 16, 2017 16:18:54 GMT
However he misses the point when he talks about 'question 2'. The very fact the terms of Brexit were not defined in the ballot is precisely why we are in the mess we are in now. The simple fact is he will get his wish, we will leave the EU eventually end of. However it might not be the departure he wanted personally but it will be the departure that I would wager many who did actually vote leave will be perfectly happy with. (though of course as this wasn't the way the question was asked we actually will never know for sure. To put it another way the questions wasn't:- Leave (with a hard brexit) or Remain.Nor was it Leave (with a soft brexit ) or Remain.He didn't miss any point. The vote was to Leave anyway it comes He was also dead right that free movement of labour has been a disaster for the average working person. Any "agreement" fudged by the political "elite" that allows free movement of labour is a betrayal of those who voted Leave.
The cries of woe about how there won't be labour to pick the crops without free movement of labour is pure bullshit. Casual foreign labour (without residential rights) was picking crops in the UK before the EU existed. Why can't politicians get it through their thick, selfish skulls that their gravy train is going to disappear if they do not comply with the wishes of the electorate. They worry about the rise of extremist parties but fail to see that is a direct result of their high handed disregard for the voters
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 17:03:47 GMT
However he misses the point when he talks about 'question 2'. The very fact the terms of Brexit were not defined in the ballot is precisely why we are in the mess we are in now. The simple fact is he will get his wish, we will leave the EU eventually end of. However it might not be the departure he wanted personally but it will be the departure that I would wager many who did actually vote leave will be perfectly happy with. (though of course as this wasn't the way the question was asked we actually will never know for sure. To put it another way the questions wasn't:- Leave (with a hard brexit) or Remain.Nor was it Leave (with a soft brexit ) or Remain.He didn't miss any point. The vote was to Leave anyway it comes So how does the vote (defeat) scupper the intention to leave?
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Post by Delta9 on Dec 16, 2017 17:38:16 GMT
However he misses the point when he talks about 'question 2'. The very fact the terms of Brexit were not defined in the ballot is precisely why we are in the mess we are in now. The simple fact is he will get his wish, we will leave the EU eventually end of. However it might not be the departure he wanted personally but it will be the departure that I would wager many who did actually vote leave will be perfectly happy with. (though of course as this wasn't the way the question was asked we actually will never know for sure. To put it another way the questions wasn't:- Leave (with a hard brexit) or Remain.Nor was it Leave (with a soft brexit ) or Remain.He didn't miss any point. The vote was to Leave anyway it comes He was also dead right that free movement of labour has been a disaster for the average working person. Any "agreement" fudged by the political "elite" that allows free movement of labour is a betrayal of those who voted Leave.
The cries of woe about how there won't be labour to pick the crops without free movement of labour is pure bullshit. Casual foreign labour (without residential rights) was picking crops in the UK before the EU existed. Why can't politicians get it through their thick, selfish skulls that their gravy train is going to disappear if they do not comply with the wishes of the electorate. They worry about the rise of extremist parties but fail to see that is a direct result of their high handed disregard for the voters I think that most brexiters can't see the wood for the trees. The influx of migrant workers isn't the problem, it is a result of the problem. Stopping it will solve nothing, but I suppose reactionary policies are the norm for Brits. Rather than actually tackling the cause of the issues we usually just overreact to the result of them. Also, I enjoyed having freedom to move and work around Europe. I'm more than a little pissed off that this is being taken away from me.
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Post by Gone on Dec 16, 2017 18:14:03 GMT
He didn't miss any point. The vote was to Leave anyway it comes So how does the vote (defeat) scupper the intention to leave? It depends on how it is structured. If they vote and accept the deal, then fine, but it is not clear to me if the no vote means - A) Go back and negotiate another deal, meanwhile we will stay in and negotiations will never conclude - so basically stay in for ever (on much worse terms) or B) Leave with no deal and revert to WTO rules. If the Vote is between 'leave and accept the deal' or 'leave without a deal and use WTO terms' then that would a reasonable thing to do and satisfy the referendum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 18:28:49 GMT
So how does the vote (defeat) scupper the intention to leave? It depends on how it is structured. If they vote and accept the deal, then fine, but it is not clear to me if the no vote means - A) Go back and negotiate another deal, meanwhile we will stay in and negotiations will never conclude - so basically stay in for ever (on much worse terms) or B) Leave with no deal and revert to WTO rules. If the Vote is between 'leave and accept the deal' or 'leave without a deal and use WTO terms' then that would a reasonable thing to do and satisfy the referendum. Option A has many different interpretations, the interpretation you have described is (in my opinion) unlikely to occur.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 20:26:07 GMT
He didn't miss any point. The vote was to Leave anyway it comes So how does the vote (defeat) scupper the intention to leave? It doesn't. It appears that John missed the point too. His argument was he didn't get asked question 2, a supplemental question about the type of Brexit and that the politicians were now procrastinating rather than just getting us out. The fact is they are getting us out, the fact the nature of the exit is not to his liking is tough. It was never ever going to be 'we'll just get out no matter the cost,' anybody with a degree of an understanding of the complexities of withdrawing at minimum cost to the country grasps this.
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Post by Delta9 on Dec 16, 2017 21:03:41 GMT
Also, I enjoyed having freedom to move and work around Europe. I'm more than a little pissed off that this is being taken away from me. Britain 'leaving the EU' wouldn't affect that - before joining the EU/EEC Brits were free to travel round Europe (and the world) with a British Passport. And yes, you could also work anywhere - if they wanted you, meaning that you'd be needed for something, or that you'd be qualified to do something, have a skill, be married to a native of that country, etc. What you may not be free to do 'after Brexit' is go to Poland/Spain/Italy/Slovakia and go straight to the Social Security Office for your Social Money/Unemployment Benefit, if you were to have the intention of just lazing around. It will make it a huge pain to move around working, and rule out the lifestyle I used to lead, and would like to go back to leading. You have never been able to just rock up and claim benefits in those countries.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2017 21:25:23 GMT
The funny thing here, the really funny thing is that the brexiters were constantly banging on about the referendum result telling the remainers to 'suck it up, 'get over it you lost' blah blah ........ Now that it looks like it might not quite be the hard exit some of them longed for, I would just say....... 'suck it up and get over it'.
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Post by thebfg on Dec 17, 2017 0:01:01 GMT
So how does the vote (defeat) scupper the intention to leave? It depends on how it is structured. If they vote and accept the deal, then fine, but it is not clear to me if the no vote means - A) Go back and negotiate another deal, meanwhile we will stay in and negotiations will never conclude - so basically stay in for ever (on much worse terms) or B) Leave with no deal and revert to WTO rules. If the Vote is between 'leave and accept the deal' or 'leave without a deal and use WTO terms' then that would a reasonable thing to do and satisfy the referendum. AFAIK we invoked article 51 so were out in fact AFAIK there us a date we must leave by. So we won't stay in forever "negotiating"
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Post by thebfg on Dec 17, 2017 0:05:52 GMT
The funny thing here, the really funny thing is that the brexiters were constantly banging on about the referendum result telling the remainers to 'suck it up, 'get over it you lost' blah blah ........ Now that it looks like it might not quite be the hard exit some of them longed for, I would just say....... 'suck it up and get over it'. It probably will be a hard well hardish exit. That German lesbian stated yesterday as we don't want the four freedoms we can't have anything. Or something similar anyways. A right petulant strop.
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