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Post by bargemast on Jan 25, 2018 14:49:47 GMT
The CWDF goon show is on the roll again in the parallel thread on injection pump timing for RN and National engines. This morning, someone called ''Billybobbooth'' posted his own set of homespun instructions on how NOT to set-up RN and National injection timing, whilst holding on to a better than evens chance of wrecking the injector pump in the process. To add to general confusion, Tony Brooks has chipped in with his pet theory about the timing shims used under Lister single element injector pumps being only for setting the pump/injection 'phasing', and having nothing to do with injection timing - which in fact IS their sole purpose and function (by timing each pump and cylinder independently of the others, the 'phasing', in effect, looks after itself. I really don't know whether to laugh or weep. Nb. I've mentioned Tony Brooks contribution to the CWDF nonsense by way of expressing my gratitude to him for not bothering to mention me whilst recommending someone wanting repair work on a Lister STW the other day to RLWP, . . as also recommended by Fincher and the others he's had for mugs, . . they've even taken to calling him the 'engine whisperer' now - anyone got a bucket handy ? ! I have one Tony, but not really handy as it's on my list Peter. btw all the best with your foot '(feet ?).
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Post by tonyb on Jan 25, 2018 17:08:00 GMT
The CWDF goon show is on the roll again in the parallel thread on injection pump timing for RN and National engines. This morning, someone called ''Billybobbooth'' posted his own set of homespun instructions on how NOT to set-up RN and National injection timing, whilst holding on to a better than evens chance of wrecking the injector pump in the process. To add to general confusion, Tony Brooks has chipped in with his pet theory about the timing shims used under Lister single element injector pumps being only for setting the pump/injection 'phasing', and having nothing to do with injection timing - which in fact IS their sole purpose and function (by timing each pump and cylinder independently of the others, the 'phasing', in effect, looks after itself. I really don't know whether to laugh or weep. Nb. I've mentioned Tony Brooks contribution to the CWDF nonsense by way of expressing my gratitude to him for not bothering to mention me whilst recommending someone wanting repair work on a Lister STW the other day to RLWP, . . as also recommended by Fincher and the others he's had for mugs, . . they've even taken to calling him the 'engine whisperer' now - anyone got a bucket handy ? ! Why do you not quote all I said and also read all my posts. Could it be because to do so would question your pet whatevers? I have said that shimming the Lister pump WILL alter the timing but I also said that in my view its primary purpose is to ensure the phasing is correct. The actual pump timing in so far as the machining & assembly tolerances allow is done by camshaft timing. If you can not see that the there is a problem with one of us. After all you did say the spill timing on the RN is done at the drive gear (or maybe I did not understand you!). If you read the whole thread you will see I also made it clear that I had little experience of RNs, but I know enough to see the Lister and RN injection systems are different. Phasing is about getting each pump to start injection at the same place relative to each other and the piston/crankshaft position. Pump timing however it's done, is to ensure the injection on (typically) no. 1 cylinder starts at the correct time in the cycle. As you well know the Listers I am talking about has no independent pump camshaft so no phasing can be done off the engine. On a single cylinder you are correct that the timing and phasing are one and the same thing. ON any more cylinders I hold that no.1 is timed by the shims and the rest are in effect phased by them. As I explained in the original posts it is a moot point and depends upon how you view the situation. Apart from your somewhat insulting phrases I suggest we are in far close agreement than you care to maker out. Maybe the tone of your posts make me cautious about recommending you to people. If I knew your business contact details, and where you are based, plus more than a few good customer feedbacks I would happily recommend you, unfortunately I do not have not. I agree the Billybobbooth post was very likely to lead some boaters to do some expensive damage so I tried to warn others off. However as someone had already mentioned Lister procedures in relation to the original query I felt it important to make it clear than I was not discussing Lister injection equipment in my reply. The reason I, as you put it, "took umbrage" is because the OP gave you far more information than he originally gave on CWF and when he did I answered his question as soon as I had the extra info. I admit that I forgot the danger of the element hitting the pump head so thanks for reminding me. Otherwise I would have mentioned that as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:10:19 GMT
I was wondering why someone with a Russell Newbery which was running ok would be bothered about it. If it's smoking a bit then put a longer exhaust on there. If its a bugger to start in winter then its worth trying to get a radiator in the engine room. I did this and made a considerable difference.
In my experience it was a well made engine with very little needing doing but the one I had was a modern (1986) unit so I suppose older ones could be more of a pain. The main problem I remember was the potential or sticking exhaust valves. Having the valves horizontal does seem an odd design but the very well respected Gleniffer engines had the same clerestory combustion chamber design so it must have been a Good Thing overall.
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Post by linnet on Jan 25, 2018 18:30:18 GMT
I was wondering why someone with a Russell Newbery which was running ok would be bothered about it. If it's smoking a bit then put a longer exhaust on there. If its a bugger to start in winter then its worth trying to get a radiator in the engine room. I did this and made a considerable difference. In my experience it was a well made engine with very little needing doing but the one I had was a modern (1986) unit so I suppose older ones could be more of a pain. The main problem I remember was the potential or sticking exhaust valves. Having the valves horizontal does seem an odd design but the very well respected Gleniffer engines had the same clerestory combustion chamber design so it must have been a Good Thing overall. Because I am a tinkerer..and now it seems, unintensionally I stir shitπ
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 25, 2018 20:26:34 GMT
The CWDF goon show is on the roll again in the parallel thread on injection pump timing for RN and National engines. This morning, someone called ''Billybobbooth'' posted his own set of homespun instructions on how NOT to set-up RN and National injection timing, whilst holding on to a better than evens chance of wrecking the injector pump in the process. To add to general confusion, Tony Brooks has chipped in with his pet theory about the timing shims used under Lister single element injector pumps being only for setting the pump/injection 'phasing', and having nothing to do with injection timing - which in fact IS their sole purpose and function (by timing each pump and cylinder independently of the others, the 'phasing', in effect, looks after itself. I really don't know whether to laugh or weep. Nb. I've mentioned Tony Brooks contribution to the CWDF nonsense by way of expressing my gratitude to him for not bothering to mention me whilst recommending someone wanting repair work on a Lister STW the other day to RLWP, . . as also recommended by Fincher and the others he's had for mugs, . . they've even taken to calling him the 'engine whisperer' now - anyone got a bucket handy ? ! Why do you not quote all I said and also read all my posts. Could it be because to do so would question your pet whatevers? I have said that shimming the Lister pump WILL alter the timing but I also said that in my view its primary purpose is to ensure the phasing is correct. The actual pump timing in so far as the machining & assembly tolerances allow is done by camshaft timing. If you can not see that the there is a problem with one of us. After all you did say the spill timing on the RN is done at the drive gear (or maybe I did not understand you!). If you read the whole thread you will see I also made it clear that I had little experience of RNs, but I know enough to see the Lister and RN injection systems are different.Phasing is about getting each pump to start injection at the same place relative to each other and the piston/crankshaft position. Pump timing however it's done, is to ensure the injection on (typically) no. 1 cylinder starts at the correct time in the cycle. As you well know the Listers I am talking about has no independent pump camshaft so no phasing can be done off the engine. On a single cylinder you are correct that the timing and phasing are one and the same thing. ON any more cylinders I hold that no.1 is timed by the shims and the rest are in effect phased by them. As I explained in the original posts it is a moot point and depends upon how you view the situation. Apart from your somewhat insulting phrases I suggest we are in far close agreement than you care to maker out. Maybe the tone of your posts make me cautious about recommending you to people. If I knew your business contact details, and where you are based, plus more than a few good customer feedbacks I would happily recommend you, unfortunately I do not have not. I agree the Billybobbooth post was very likely to lead some boaters to do some expensive damage so I tried to warn others off. However as someone had already mentioned Lister procedures in relation to the original query I felt it important to make it clear than I was not discussing Lister injection equipment in my reply. The reason I, as you put it, "took umbrage" is because the OP gave you far more information than he originally gave on CWF and when he did I answered his question as soon as I had the extra info. I admit that I forgot the danger of the element hitting the pump head so thanks for reminding me. Otherwise I would have mentioned that as well. I've always regarded the advice/guidance you give on the likes of BMC and Perkins engines as first class and thoroughly sound, and there are no reasons why I should change that view. However, your semantics over the (injection) pump timing on Lister's 'H' and 'S' range engines get weirder with every airing, and your hypothesis over the primary purpose of the shims used under the injection pumps is sufficiently at odds with the views of the people who designed and produced those engines to suggest that you are no more familiar with the 'H' and 'S' range Listers than you are with the 'D' series Nationals and RN's. No amount of searching through the sections on Injection timing in any of the relevant Lister manuals will come up with any references to pump phasing, and the reason for that, with that particular design and layout is, as I mentioned earlier, that correct pump phasing is a happy, and inevitable, side-effect/result of the process of correctly setting the injection timing for each individual cylinder by installing the correct number and thickness of shims under each pump in the first place. Confusion abounds and persists with your statement - " After all you did say the spill timing on the RN is done at the drive gear ", . . well NO, that is NOT what I said at all. What I did in fact say was that spill timing (which is a method of finding the point at which injection commences (ie. spill cut-off) relative to crankshaft rotation, and NOT something that itself requires setting or adjusting) was neither the recommended nor the preferred method of setting injection timing on RN's or Nationals. At the risk of adding to the already apparent confusion, I could also have added that after initially adjusting the injector pump roller tappets to the correct length, the final checking and setting of the pump phasing on these engines by use of the spill cut-off point/method is far more accurate than relying on the pump window marks alone. Your parting shot, in the above post, to the effect that : - " The reason I, as you put it, "took umbrage" is because the OP gave you far more information than he originally gave on CWF . . " - is, quite frankly, utter nonsense and rather silly. The advice you posted was wrong, but it wasn't wrong thanks to the OP giving out - "more information [on Thunderboat] than he originally gave on CWF " - it was wrong solely as a direct consequence of you speculating about setting-up procedures on an engine design and layout you clearly know next to nothing about. Never a good idea, . . especially if you choose to make it a matter of public record.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 25, 2018 20:57:50 GMT
I was wondering why someone with a Russell Newbery which was running ok would be bothered about it. If it's smoking a bit then put a longer exhaust on there. If its a bugger to start in winter then its worth trying to get a radiator in the engine room. I did this and made a considerable difference. In my experience it was a well made engine with very little needing doing but the one I had was a modern (1986) unit so I suppose older ones could be more of a pain. The main problem I remember was the potential or sticking exhaust valves. Having the valves horizontal does seem an odd design but the very well respected Gleniffer engines had the same clerestory combustion chamber design so it must have been a Good Thing overall. Because I am a tinkerer...and now it seems, unintensionally I stir shitπ But, there wouldn't be any shit to stir, unintentionally or otherwise, if everyone would resist the temptation to post speculation based advice about things they clearly know little or nothing about. As for the tinkering, . . that is genuinely/authentically 'traditional', and is in fact precisely what most working boatmen did regularly with their engines. Nationals and RN's could be persuaded to perform that bit better by way of some judicious, non-manufacturer approved, alterations to valve timing (via slight alterations to tappet clearances), compression ratio (thinner copper rings under the heads), slightly higher injector break pressures, and injection timing, . . the latter being set-up using two old pennies to gauge the pump (bucket) tappet lift by the position of the pump window lines at the TDC marks on the flywheel rim instead of the 'Injection' timing marks, which were at 10 degrees BTDC.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 25, 2018 21:22:31 GMT
The CWDF goon show is on the roll again in the parallel thread on injection pump timing for RN and National engines. This morning, someone called ''Billybobbooth'' posted his own set of homespun instructions on how NOT to set-up RN and National injection timing, whilst holding on to a better than evens chance of wrecking the injector pump in the process. To add to general confusion, Tony Brooks has chipped in with his pet theory about the timing shims used under Lister single element injector pumps being only for setting the pump/injection 'phasing', and having nothing to do with injection timing - which in fact IS their sole purpose and function (by timing each pump and cylinder independently of the others, the 'phasing', in effect, looks after itself. I really don't know whether to laugh or weep. Nb. I've mentioned Tony Brooks contribution to the CWDF nonsense by way of expressing my gratitude to him for not bothering to mention me whilst recommending someone wanting repair work on a Lister STW the other day to RLWP, . . as also recommended by Fincher and the others he's had for mugs, . . they've even taken to calling him the 'engine whisperer' now - anyone got a bucket handy ? ! I have one Tony, but not really handy as it's on my list Peter. btw all the best with your foot '(feet ?). Thanks, Peter. I'm able to give my gammy foot a bit of a rest at the moment, . . I'm stuck on board with the river misbehaving itself just now, although nothing like as bad as you've got. Best of luck with all that, and take care. Is any of that stuff that's wedged underneath you vibrating and playing a tatoo on the hull plating in the current, . . . I've got a bit of tree doing that at the moment, and it's driving me up the wall !
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Post by bargemast on Jan 25, 2018 21:53:45 GMT
I have one Tony, but not really handy as it's on my list Peter. btw all the best with your foot '(feet ?). Thanks, Peter. I'm able to give my gammy foot a bit of a rest at the moment, . . I'm stuck on board with the river misbehaving itself just now, although nothing like as bad as you've got. Best of luck with all that, and take care. Is an of that stuff that's wedged underneath you vibrating and playing a tatoo on the hull plating in the current, . . . I've got a bit of tree doing that at the moment, and it's driving me up the wall ! Rest is always good to give the foot a better chance of healing Tony, being forced to stay onboard isn't much fun, even if that's where I like to be most of the time. The big tree that's stuck partly in front of my bow has several branches underneath that are touching the bottom, and with all the crap,branches and other debris that hits the boat night and day and is rolling underneath making a hell of a lot of noise. So much so that I've almost forgotten what sleeping at night means. I do have an advantage to many other human beings, and that is that I'm crazy already (but not dangerous for anyone but myself I hasten to say), if not all this noise while I'm trying to sleep would have driven me crazy now. Badly misbehaving rivers isn't something one can get easily used to, fast flowing alright, but misbehaving as we've had since the last 2 week isn't fun anymore, and getting older and less agile while having to fight the elements doesn't help in getting some of the much needed rest. Atb and keep well Tony, Peter.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 23, 2018 11:26:27 GMT
The CWDF goon show is on the roll again in the parallel thread on injection pump timing for RN and National engines. This morning, someone called ''Billybobbooth'' posted his own set of homespun instructions on how NOT to set-up RN and National injection timing, whilst holding on to a better than evens chance of wrecking the injector pump in the process. To add to general confusion, Tony Brooks has chipped in with his pet theory about the timing shims used under Lister single element injector pumps being only for setting the pump/injection 'phasing', and having nothing to do with injection timing - which in fact IS their sole purpose and function (by timing each pump and cylinder independently of the others, the 'phasing', in effect, looks after itself. I really don't know whether to laugh or weep. Nb. I've mentioned Tony Brooks contribution to the CWDF nonsense by way of expressing my gratitude to him for not bothering to mention me whilst recommending someone wanting repair work on a Lister STW the other day to RLWP, . . as also recommended by Fincher and the others he's had for mugs, . . they've even taken to calling him the 'engine whisperer' now - anyone got a bucket handy ? ! There's an amusing follow-up to this subject running on the clueless world forum at the moment. The CWDF member mentioned above, in my Jan 25 post, opened a topic titled "National refuses to start" at 2240 hrs on Wednesday last, and it seems that he might have had the outcome predicted as result of his messing about with the the injection pump timing on his engine without having the slightest idea of what he was actually doing. The CWDF engines 'Brains Trust' is in top form, . . . the advice he's had from them so far is worse than useless, and most of it is inapplicable to National engines anyway. If anyone wants a National, there just might be a cheap one for sale sometime soon !
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