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Post by linnet on Jan 14, 2018 18:20:48 GMT
Hi all..new to this forum I have a RN DM2 and I want to advance the spill timing.. Do I lengthen the piston ie turn clockwise looking at pump...or shorten ie. Anticlockwise..cheers in advance
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Post by JohnV on Jan 14, 2018 18:34:03 GMT
welcome linnet ....... Me ? I know nuffink
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 18:41:33 GMT
Hi all..new to this forum I have a RN DM2 and I want to advance the spill timing.. Do I lengthen the piston ie turn clockwise looking at pump...or shorten ie. Anticlockwise..cheers in advance I ran a DM2 for several thousand hours on one of my narrow boats in the 90s/00s but I never needed to do anything to the timing. Have you got the manual? If not then it might be worth contacting the Russell Newbery Register if they still exist. I seem to remember something about a skew gear which sometimes slips on these units but can't remember if that was injection pump or valve timing. There are marks on the flywheel for spill timing at least there were on the one I had (1986 build date DM2).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 18:45:14 GMT
If you want to advance the timing that means putting the no. 1 piston back down further before TDC. Advance as in get the fuel injection process started earlier. Why do you need to do this? Is it smoky or grunting a bit? Or is it a rebuild ? Discussion on a RN D1 here www.stationary-engine.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-31927.htmlI'd seek advice from the RN chaps (google) they are quite knowledgeable I believe .
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Post by linnet on Jan 14, 2018 19:39:30 GMT
If you want to advance the timing that means putting the no. 1 piston back down further before TDC. Advance as in get the fuel injection process started earlier. Why do you need to do this? Is it smoky or grunting a bit? Or is it a rebuild ? Discussion on a RN D1 here www.stationary-engine.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-31927.htmlI'd seek advice from the RN chaps (google) they are quite knowledgeable I believe . I have been unable to obtain a manual as yet..its a bit tight lipped so to speak...two yrs ago I had diesel knock and retarded the spill timing but I have forgotton which way I adjusted the pump pistons..It does not smoke or run rough but I want to play to get optimum ...there are no marks on flywheel and I will count the amount of flats I turn it to enable me to return it back..just wanted to know which way if anyone knew..thanks
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 14, 2018 20:11:07 GMT
Hi all..new to this forum I have a RN DM2 and I want to advance the spill timing.. Do I lengthen the piston ie turn clockwise looking at pump...or shorten ie. Anticlockwise..cheers in advance Hello 'linnet', and welcome to the Thunderboat. There are several different adjustments that can be made to the injection timing on either the RN or National version of the engine you've got. Altering and/or setting the length of the injection pump tappets is the first step in the process of initially setting-up the injection timing, and once it's set-up correctly should NOT be disturbed or altered again unless it's been necessary to replace any worn or broken components, including the fuel (cam)shaft itself. There's a step by step procedure for setting tappet lengths and it must be done carefully and correctly, if not and the tappets are adjusted over long then you can cause serious damage to the plungers and delivery valves in the pump elements. 'Spill timing' is a method of setting the injection timing by finding, and adjusting, the spill cut off point (with the delivery valve plunger and spring removed from the holder) to coincide with the 'injection' mark, which is 10 degrees BTDC on the flywheel rim. However, it isn't really necessary to go to that much trouble to get the timing right on a National or an RN. The usual method is simply to adjust fuel shaft skewgear drive hub in relation to the exhaust cam chain wheel to get the lines on the bucket tappets in the injector pump lining up with the marks on the pump body at the side of the 'windows' in the pump body when the flywheel reaches 10 degrees BTDC whilst being turned in the normal direction of rotation. I can't be absolutely sure of just what you're intending to adjust from what you've asked, but from your mentioning of clockwise or anti-clockwise it does sound as if you are looking at adjusting the fuel shaft skewgear drive hub, which is locked in position with three studs and nuts through three slotted holes in the exhaust cam chainwheel, rather than by making any adjustments to the tappet lengths. If this is what you're looking at and intending to adjust, then moving the three studs and nuts round in a clockwise direction in the slotted holes in the chainwheel advances the injection timing, and anti-clockwise retards it. If there's anything you're still unsure of, or if you want to know anything else whilst you're actually doing the job, you're very welcome to give me a call, anytime, on 07553 294325 or 07486 541302.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 14, 2018 20:15:58 GMT
If you want to advance the timing that means putting the no. 1 piston back down further before TDC. Advance as in get the fuel injection process started earlier. Why do you need to do this? Is it smoky or grunting a bit? Or is it a rebuild ? Discussion on a RN D1 here www.stationary-engine.net/forum/archive/index.php?t-31927.htmlI'd seek advice from the RN chaps (google) they are quite knowledgeable I believe . I have been unable to obtain a manual as yet..its a bit tight lipped so to speak...two yrs ago I had diesel knock and retarded the spill timing but I have forgotton which way I adjusted the pump pistons..It does not smoke or run rough but I want to play to get optimum ...there are no marks on flywheel and I will count the amount of flats I turn it to enable me to return it back..just wanted to know which way if anyone knew..thanks Now you've mentioned counting flats I'm not so sure you are looking at the right thing to adjust, . . it does sound as if you've altered the tappet lengths !
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Post by linnet on Jan 14, 2018 20:19:47 GMT
I have been unable to obtain a manual as yet..its a bit tight lipped so to speak...two yrs ago I had diesel knock and retarded the spill timing but I have forgotton which way I adjusted the pump pistons..It does not smoke or run rough but I want to play to get optimum ...there are no marks on flywheel and I will count the amount of flats I turn it to enable me to return it back..just wanted to know which way if anyone knew..thanks Now you've mentioned counting flats I'm not so sure you are looking at the right thing to adjust, . . it does sound as if you've altered the tappet lengths ! Thanks Tony..yes I adjusted the tappet lengths to stop the diesel knock 2yrs ago..sorry for confusing the matter..I cannot for the life of me remember which way i went though
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Post by bargemast on Jan 14, 2018 20:24:41 GMT
Hi all..new to this forum I have a RN DM2 and I want to advance the spill timing.. Do I lengthen the piston ie turn clockwise looking at pump...or shorten ie. Anticlockwise..cheers in advance Hello 'linnet', and welcome to the Thunderboat. There are several different adjustments that can be made to the injection timing on either the RN or National version of the engine you've got. Altering and/or setting the length of the injection pump tappets is the first step in the process of initially setting-up the injection timing, and once it's set-up correctly should NOT be disturbed or altered again unless it's been necessary to replace any worn or broken components, including the fuel (cam)shaft itself. There's a step by step procedure for setting tappet lengths and it must be done carefully and correctly, if not and the tappets are adjusted over long then you can cause serious damage to the plungers and delivery valves in the pump elements. 'Spill timing' is a method of setting the injection timing by finding, and adjusting, the spill cut off point (with the delivery valve plunger and spring removed from the holder) to coincide with the 'injection' mark, which is 10 degrees BTDC on the flywheel rim. However, it isn't really necessary to go to that much trouble to get the timing right on a National or an RN. The usual method is simply to adjust fuel shaft skewgear drive hub in relation to the exhaust cam chain wheel to get the lines on the bucket tappets in the injector pump lining up with the marks on the pump body at the side of the 'windows' in the pump body when the flywheel reaches 10 degrees BTDC whilst being turned in the normal direction of rotation. I can't be absolutely sure of just what you're intending to adjust from what you've asked, but from your mentioning of clockwise or anti-clockwise it does sound as if you are looking at adjusting the fuel shaft skewgear drive hub, which is locked in position with three studs and nuts through three slotted holes in the exhaust cam chainwheel, rather than by making any adjustments to the tappet lengths. If this is what you're looking at and intending to adjust, then moving the three studs and nuts round in a clockwise direction in the slotted holes in the chainwheel advances the injection timing, and anti-clockwise retards it. If there's anything you're still unsure of, or if you want to know anything else whilst you're actually doing the job, you're very welcome to give me a call, anytime, on 07553 294325 or 07486 541302. All that information and on top of that your phonenumbers for a voice helpline should be a great help for linnet. CWDF were (are) stupid to kick a helpful man like you out off their clique of experts of which most know very little about the subjects, but a lot about BS. Peter.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 14, 2018 20:33:52 GMT
Now you've mentioned counting flats I'm not so sure you are looking at the right thing to adjust, . . it does sound as if you've altered the tappet lengths ! Thanks Tony..yes I adjusted the tappet lengths to stop the diesel knock 2yrs ago..sorry for confusing the matter..I cannot for the life of me remember which way i went though In that case you'll have to start from the beginning and re-set everything, including the fuel tappets. There is only one correct length for them, and the setscrews and locknuts on the top of the tappets are only for achieving the correct lengths on initial set-up and NOT for subsequent adjustments to the injection timing.
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Post by linnet on Jan 14, 2018 20:42:33 GMT
Thanks Tony..yes I adjusted the tappet lengths to stop the diesel knock 2yrs ago..sorry for confusing the matter..I cannot for the life of me remember which way i went though In that case you'll have to start from the beginning and re-set everything, including the fuel tappets. There is only one correct length for them, and the setscrews and locknuts on the top of them are only for achieving the correct length on initial set-up and NOT for subsequent adjustments to the injection timing. Aaa..ok. I was mis informed 2yrs ago then..I will leave well alone then till something goes wrong as it inevetibly does..thank you for your advice
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 14, 2018 21:10:42 GMT
In that case you'll have to start from the beginning and re-set everything, including the fuel tappets. There is only one correct length for them, and the setscrews and locknuts on the top of them are only for achieving the correct length on initial set-up and NOT for subsequent adjustments to the injection timing. . . . . . I will leave well alone then till something goes wrong as it inevetibly does..thank you for your advice That's probably the best plan for now. If the engine's running and starting alright, and no smoke (grey/whitish, or black) then you've almost certainly got away without causing any damage to the injection pump internals through over lengthening the fuel tappets. I don't know where you do most of your boating but if it's mostly canal work then you're unlikely to ever be using top revs or working the engine hard, so it's not going to be producing anything much in the way of smoke until the injectors are need of some attention, when starting will also be affected. Back in the days when engines like yours were in use in working boats there was a (boatman's) way of setting-up the injection timing to get a few more revs out of a National or an RN (generally known as Rush-me-Nevers) without any (black) smoking on full chat. It involved using two old penny coins for setting the pump timing, and was very much frowned on by the engine makers, and by most of the British Waterways engineering/fitting staff. It did work very well, though, . . you could thrash the living daylights out of them without having to stand steering behind a pipefull of stinking black smoke.
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Post by tonyb on Jan 15, 2018 14:24:02 GMT
CWDF were (are) stupid to kick a helpful man like you out off their clique of experts of which most know very little about the subjects, but a lot about BS. Peter. I object to that comment. When he posted on CWDF he used incorrect terminology and it took a while to get clarification. As soon as I was sure about what he meant I answered him. Use incorrect terminology and delay clarification and you will not ge the answer you need - that's not BS, it's fact. He is not talking about spill timing, he is talking about phasing the elements although being a relatively "crude" design that may be the way RN do the spill timing. I fully agree with what Tony D said about the topic.
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Post by bargemast on Jan 15, 2018 16:53:03 GMT
CWDF were (are) stupid to kick a helpful man like you out off their clique of experts of which most know very little about the subjects, but a lot about BS. Peter. I object to that comment. When he posted on CWDF he used incorrect terminology and it took a while to get clarification. As soon as I was sure about what he meant I answered him. Use incorrect terminology and delay clarification and you will not ge the answer you need - that's not BS, it's fact. He is not talking about spill timing, he is talking about phasing the elements although being a relatively "crude" design that may be the way RN do the spill timing. I fully agree with what Tony D said about the topic. With his telephone-number that he gave a couple of times on CWDF as well, the person that needed the information could have (should have) called him to ask for clarification which would have been ever so easy directly through a phone conversation. btw, you've always been someone that has been willing too to help people with problems out by going actually to where they where, if it wasn't too far away from your place. Your service and Toney Dunkley's help has been given without any obligation, and was there only to try to help people that desperately needed that help. The BS I was talking about is what many of the members were more interested in, only adding numbers to their posting account than actuelly helping with real knowledge. I can't help it if you don't agree with that. Peter.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jan 16, 2018 0:04:04 GMT
CWDF were (are) stupid to kick a helpful man like you out off their clique of experts of which most know very little about the subjects, but a lot about BS. Peter. He is not talking about spill timing, he is talking about phasing the elements although being a relatively "crude" design that may be the way RN do the spill timing. This 1920's design was the basis for virtually the same engine, whether produced by any of the companies who have traded under the Russell Newbery name, or one of the National Gas and Oil Engine Co. versions of the same basic design and built under licence. It does in fact incorporate 3 separate camshafts within the engine, two housed in the combined cylinder block and crankcase (the 'column', as the makers referred to it) and a third one, referred to as the 'fuel shaft', housed in the timing case and carrying (in the earlier engines) the governor assembly at one end and operating the cooling water circulation pump, the fuel lift pump, and the fuel injection pump via a set of adjustable roller tappets housed in the main timing case casting. Adjustment of the effective lengths of the fuel injection camshaft roller tappets, as distinct from the non-adjustable injection pump element bucket tappets housed within the injection pump body itself, is NOT " the way RN do the spill timing", it is in fact for the sole purpose of setting up the pump phasing and is the first step in setting up the injection timing. However, as I indicated in one of my earlier posts in this thread, neither 'RN' nor 'National' ever advocated the spill cut-off method for setting the injection timing on these D series engines. The works recommended/approved procedure was by alignment of the injection pump body window and bucket tappet lines/marks in relation to an injection/firing mark on the flywheel rim. Looking at the engine from the timing case end, the inlet valve camshaft is housed (lengthways) in the lefthand side of the block, the exhaust valve camshaft is housed (lengthways) in the righthand side of the block, and the 'fuel shaft' is housed transversely, in the upper part of the timing case, and driven via a skew gear on a (rotationally) adjustable hub mounted on, and behind, the exhaust camshaft chainwheel. This design and layout is somewhat unusual in that it results in an 'in line' injection pump minus the usual integral camshaft, or bolt-on cambox housed camshaft as utilized on Gardners (LK, LW, LX, L3, L3B etc) with same CAV or Bryce injection pump body as those found on Nationals and RNs. It also means, of course, that the pump phasing on a National or an RN cannot be set-up other than with the pump installed on the engine, and you will need to amend the advice you gave in your recent post on CWDF - ie - "get the pump to a specialist of checking and adjusting so the phasing & calibration is correct . . . ".
With regard to the possibility of pump element plunger and delivery valve damage resulting from someone messing about with the roller tappet length adjustment, I did warn 'linnet' about this in my initial response to his question, but I'm not at all sure that he understood the point that was being made. In view of him saying the engine is running alright with no apparent problems at present, perhaps we should both repeat that warning, and at the same time emphasize the wisdom of refraining from attempts to fix things that aren't broken, and correctly identifying the fault giving rise to any particular symptom, such as 'knocking, BEFORE getting the spanners out ! I agree that the 'knock' which prompted him to begin his ill-advised tinkering in the first place would have been attributable to something other than over advanced injection timing, but as the fault, whatever it was, seems to have cleared itself and not returned, he would again be well advised to leave things alone unless and until the fault does recur, and can be correctly identified.
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