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Post by Telemachus on Feb 3, 2018 22:16:22 GMT
Going back to my other view about idiot drivers and peados. A dead victim of anything is sad yes but they don't have to suffer any further where a child abuse victim will suffer for the rest of their lives. It can have tragic effects on some people who can never recover from their ordeal. Yes the same could be said for parents who lose children, however they lose them. This touches on the heart of my point - indirectly! My complaint is in part about the “tragic effects on some people who can never recover from their ordeal”. Why is it such an ordeal that it ruins people’s lives? Well in part because society tells them to feel and think thus, through media and populist hysteria. Of course it is a very unpleasant thing to happen to anyone, and I am in no way condoning it nor trying to reduce the seriousness of the crime (although no doubt some thick person who can’t read properly will be along in a moment to claim the opposite), however if the victim is constantly reminded and has reinforced how awful and unspeakable the event was, how they are a very sad victim etc etc, that is only going to perpetuate their victimness, distress and yes even perhaps their own feelings of guilt. That has been my point all along, but I am struggling to get through the offended-on-others-behalf-self-righteous-indignation-mindless-unthinking mentality of so many on here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 22:57:54 GMT
Going back to my other view about idiot drivers and peados. A dead victim of anything is sad yes but they don't have to suffer any further where a child abuse victim will suffer for the rest of their lives. It can have tragic effects on some people who can never recover from their ordeal. Yes the same could be said for parents who lose children, however they lose them. This touches on the heart of my point - indirectly! My complaint is in part about the “tragic effects on some people who can never recover from their ordeal”. Why is it such an ordeal that it ruins people’s lives? Well in part because society tells them to feel and think thus, through media and populist hysteria. Of course it is a very unpleasant thing to happen to anyone, and I am in no way condoning it nor trying to reduce the seriousness of the crime (although no doubt some thick person who can’t read properly will be along in a moment to claim the opposite), however if the victim is constantly reminded and has reinforced how awful and unspeakable the event was, how they are a very sad victim etc etc, that is only going to perpetuate their victimness, distress and yes even perhaps their own feelings of guilt. That has been my point all along, but I am struggling to get through the offended-on-others-behalf-self-righteous-indignation-mindless-unthinking mentality of so many on here. Well at the risk of incurring your bile and being called 'thick', which i am not, you do seem to be producing a lot of hot air on this subject. As a you haven't I presume been on the receiving end of abuse then you once again do not have a clue about what you are talking about. If you have been then fair play to you for dealing with it so well but not everybody copes in the same way. Your rather dismissive "they behave in that way because society tells them to' is frankly a joke. You seem to think that people are robots and they should all be programmed in a particularly way to respond to a given situation. I am lucky, and have never been subject to abuse, but I am certainly not going to judge somebody who can't 'get over It' in any way shape or form because I have never walked in their shoes. Just like bereavement of a loved one some people cope with this stuff differently, I tend to cope very well, but not everybody does, I am not going to dismiss their emotions so readily. You may have been a great heli pilot but you would have been a shit nurse.
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Post by Delta9 on Feb 3, 2018 23:07:37 GMT
There is plenty of evidence that certain types of trauma/ptsd are socially constructed. It is a hard subject to discuss as it can seem to some that it lessens the offence that causes the initial trauma. It is important that it is considered and discussed because a lot of the counselling and treatment that people receive could actually be making things worse
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 23:18:52 GMT
There is plenty of evidence that certain types of trauma/ptsd are socially constructed. It is a hard subject to discuss as it can seem to some that it lessens the offence that causes the initial trauma. It is important that it is considered and discussed because a lot of the counselling and treatment that people receive could actually be making things worse But does the evidence say that everybody who reacts badly to trauma is doing so because they are being directed that way? I have no doubt a socially constructed reaction exists (just look what happened post the death of Diana FFS) but what proportion react badly to being abused simply because they reacted badly (over simplification alert).
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Post by Delta9 on Feb 3, 2018 23:28:11 GMT
There is plenty of evidence that certain types of trauma/ptsd are socially constructed. It is a hard subject to discuss as it can seem to some that it lessens the offence that causes the initial trauma. It is important that it is considered and discussed because a lot of the counselling and treatment that people receive could actually be making things worse But does the evidence say that everybody who reacts badly to trauma is doing so because they are being directed that way? I have no doubt a socially constructed reaction exists (just look what happened post the death of Diana FFS) but what proportion react badly to being abused simply because they reacted badly (over simplification alert). It's a subject that is pretty much impossible to study ethically, so who knows... I'd subscribe to the theory that most of our morals and emotions are social constructs.
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Post by thebfg on Feb 3, 2018 23:32:59 GMT
I've not seen such research, but how does that tie in with soldiers who suffered in in WW 1. Because let's be fair they suffered it on the front, they and others did not even realise they were suffering with trauma.
Bringing it upto date. As long as were not giving it a blanket coverage then i can accept there maybe something in it.
What I know of abuse victims is that some feel ashamed and guilty as they brought it on themselves and anger towards others who they feel allowed it to happen.
It's an emotive subject but I'm not in the holier than thou or easily offended camp im happy to discuss recent research.
I'm happy to accept half the problem is grown adults complaining of sexual harassment or abuse because their bum was pinched or someone used a rude chat up line on them. They need to man up.
The recent cases of oh he pinched by bum 35 years ago and I was happy about it then because he was rich and famous but now he's dead I'll try get some money really takes it away from true child abuse victims.
That I will accept all day long.
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Post by thebfg on Feb 4, 2018 0:05:19 GMT
But does the evidence say that everybody who reacts badly to trauma is doing so because they are being directed that way? I have no doubt a socially constructed reaction exists (just look what happened post the death of Diana FFS) but what proportion react badly to being abused simply because they reacted badly (over simplification alert). It's a subject that is pretty much impossible to study ethically, so who knows... I'd subscribe to the theory that most of our morals and emotions are social constructs. Emotions yes. Morals, I am not so sure. My emotions develop and change over time but my morals are pretty standard and jave been since my parents kind of installed them in me by teaching me their version of right and wrong. Social engineering or social trends have changed over the last decade or so I don't think we can deny that with the internet and how easy it is for everyone to connect with each other. But I remember how the nation reacted to the Jamie bulger death I am not sure it is any different to now. Recently one of our stores was held up. Incidently twice in a week. The first time I laughed. Not at the event but at the manager who I knew would be angry they couldent do anything about it. I knew he would of wanted to batter the bloke and it would be really annoying him. I had to explain that. But what they couldent grasp that I wasent upset and I asked should I be sad for the person I did not know and will never even meet. I asked if they wanted to have a cry because some bloke up north got held up aswell. They couldent understand the point I was making. While I know that what happened was wrong it doesent upset me. However that does not detract from how I feel about paedophiles.
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Post by Delta9 on Feb 4, 2018 0:17:34 GMT
It's a subject that is pretty much impossible to study ethically, so who knows... I'd subscribe to the theory that most of our morals and emotions are social constructs. but my morals are pretty standard and jave been since my parents kind of installed them in me by teaching me their version of right and wrong. Does that not confirm that they are social construct?
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Post by thebfg on Feb 4, 2018 0:30:47 GMT
but my morals are pretty standard and jave been since my parents kind of installed them in me by teaching me their version of right and wrong. Does that not confirm that they are social construct? I see your point and may depend on the definition of social, but that still doesn't explain why abuse victims should feel a certain way or indeed how I fell the offender should be treated by the justice system. I doubt that all their feelings are that way because society tells them they should be.
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Post by thebfg on Feb 4, 2018 0:47:45 GMT
With some things social engineering and how it changes can and is a good thing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2018 7:10:04 GMT
But does the evidence say that everybody who reacts badly to trauma is doing so because they are being directed that way? I have no doubt a socially constructed reaction exists (just look what happened post the death of Diana FFS) but what proportion react badly to being abused simply because they reacted badly (over simplification alert). It's a subject that is pretty much impossible to study ethically, so who knows... It does get discussed/studied by many of the experts (local/national and internationally) looking at helping PTSD sufferers. Because of the complexities involved any changes evolve slowly.
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Post by patty on Feb 4, 2018 7:24:54 GMT
interesting debate, i have read carefully comments made Sometimes victims get stuck in a loop of terrible memories of abuse which they cannot break out of without help....time does not heal it just perpetuates the pain...it does not need comments or moral views of others for it to live on... Whether this is because of up bringing and moral rights and wrongs or whether its because some events to awful for any one to cope with I don't know. We are all different and have experienced life in different ways and thats what makes these discussions so interesting...if annoying at times...
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 4, 2018 8:44:11 GMT
This touches on the heart of my point - indirectly! My complaint is in part about the “tragic effects on some people who can never recover from their ordeal”. Why is it such an ordeal that it ruins people’s lives? Well in part because society tells them to feel and think thus, through media and populist hysteria. Of course it is a very unpleasant thing to happen to anyone, and I am in no way condoning it nor trying to reduce the seriousness of the crime (although no doubt some thick person who can’t read properly will be along in a moment to claim the opposite), however if the victim is constantly reminded and has reinforced how awful and unspeakable the event was, how they are a very sad victim etc etc, that is only going to perpetuate their victimness, distress and yes even perhaps their own feelings of guilt. That has been my point all along, but I am struggling to get through the offended-on-others-behalf-self-righteous-indignation-mindless-unthinking mentality of so many on here. Well at the risk of incurring your bile and being called 'thick', which i am not, you do seem to be producing a lot of hot air on this subject. As a you haven't I presume been on the receiving end of abuse then you once again do not have a clue about what you are talking about. If you have been then fair play to you for dealing with it so well but not everybody copes in the same way. Your rather dismissive "they behave in that way because society tells them to' is frankly a joke. You seem to think that people are robots and they should all be programmed in a particularly way to respond to a given situation. I am lucky, and have never been subject to abuse, but I am certainly not going to judge somebody who can't 'get over It' in any way shape or form because I have never walked in their shoes. Just like bereavement of a loved one some people cope with this stuff differently, I tend to cope very well, but not everybody does, I am not going to dismiss their emotions so readily. You may have been a great heli pilot but you would have been a shit nurse. You are right in only one point - I would have been a shit nurse. But then again, surely good nurses are trained, not born?
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 4, 2018 8:46:24 GMT
There is plenty of evidence that certain types of trauma/ptsd are socially constructed. It is a hard subject to discuss as it can seem to some that it lessens the offence that causes the initial trauma. It is important that it is considered and discussed because a lot of the counselling and treatment that people receive could actually be making things worse Hallejula, there is another person on here with some intelligence and capable of independent thought! Although it has to be said I’m slightly embarrassed that you have managed to say what I was thinking, so concisely and succinctly!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2018 8:51:09 GMT
Well at the risk of incurring your bile and being called 'thick', which i am not, you do seem to be producing a lot of hot air on this subject. As a you haven't I presume been on the receiving end of abuse then you once again do not have a clue about what you are talking about. If you have been then fair play to you for dealing with it so well but not everybody copes in the same way. Your rather dismissive "they behave in that way because society tells them to' is frankly a joke. You seem to think that people are robots and they should all be programmed in a particularly way to respond to a given situation. I am lucky, and have never been subject to abuse, but I am certainly not going to judge somebody who can't 'get over It' in any way shape or form because I have never walked in their shoes. Just like bereavement of a loved one some people cope with this stuff differently, I tend to cope very well, but not everybody does, I am not going to dismiss their emotions so readily. You may have been a great heli pilot but you would have been a shit nurse. You are right in only one point - I would have been a shit nurse. But then again, surely good nurses are trained, not born? Combination of both in my experience. I've worked with nurses who were well trained but just didn't cut it on the 'people skills' side of thing's, a bit like you, or rather how you come across in your posts.
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