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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 16, 2019 22:18:33 GMT
This is why I challenge Foxy a lot of the time. He very often repeats things that if believed will turn people to the far right. Always worth challenging these sort of quotes if you don't believe in the far right.
Whilst not the same degree as ISIS, tactics are the same.
I like to post my views with the intention that if I am barking up the wrong tree (or just barking!), someone will correct me. I know forums are mainly for entertainment value, but it is genuinely interesting to hear refreshing new thoughts and views. I do respect your outlook a lot, and have read most of your posts, so, in this case, you are right to berate me, I should have thought thrice before posting. I meant to put the really angry views of the pitchfork brigade, and then temper it with my own idea which I believe to be a compassionate solution and which, if I had the power to do so, would implement. I waver, however, because there is the danger of being naive and being stabbed in the back for bending over backwards. As a risk taker and being obstinate in my beliefs, I think she should be brought back to the UK but only on condition she were to attempt to become a 'model citizen'. How much contact should she then have with her family? Is it really from her family she has gained her attitude towards 'infidels'? Should she be isolated in, say, a county such as Cornwall, with restrictions on travel and having to report to the authorities regularly? What would you have, in this case, bassplayer? How would you like to see things turn out? Would you be prepared to be her guardian for the next 30 years to make sure she stays on the 'straight and narrow'?
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 16, 2019 22:29:20 GMT
...argue a side that they don’t actually agree with. I think that’s a good way to learn how to put both sides of an argument into context. I do that quite a lot. Its good to see both sides. There is often more than just the two sides. I was rather lazy in putting 'the case for the opposition', so give myself several minus points for that. I think first of all you need all of the details (and as I don't, I'm not qualified to say much for starters), and then you need to sit down at a table with all concerned together and a pen and paper and make a plan for the way forward, looking at all the pros and cons. Even then, the best laid plans can go astray at once if they are not strictly adhered to. Making terms and conditions imposes on someone's freedom, and it's a tricky path to go down even if you have the best interests of everyone all round. Do we really know what's going on in the Middle East/Pakistan/Afghanistan - and do we really know what's going on at home? How far do we take 'multiculturalism'? If it's so great, why not give everyone a British Passport?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 23:55:46 GMT
I like to post my views with the intention that if I am barking up the wrong tree (or just barking!), someone will correct me. I know forums are mainly for entertainment value, but it is genuinely interesting to hear refreshing new thoughts and views. I do respect your outlook a lot, and have read most of your posts, so, in this case, you are right to berate me, I should have thought thrice before posting. I meant to put the really angry views of the pitchfork brigade, and then temper it with my own idea which I believe to be a compassionate solution and which, if I had the power to do so, would implement. I waver, however, because there is the danger of being naive and being stabbed in the back for bending over backwards. As a risk taker and being obstinate in my beliefs, I think she should be brought back to the UK but only on condition she were to attempt to become a 'model citizen'. How much contact should she then have with her family? Is it really from her family she has gained her attitude towards 'infidels'? Should she be isolated in, say, a county such as Cornwall, with restrictions on travel and having to report to the authorities regularly? What would you have, in this case, bassplayer? How would you like to see things turn out? Would you be prepared to be her guardian for the next 30 years to make sure she stays on the 'straight and narrow'? I don’t think I can draw any conclusions because we don’t know all of the facts and intentions. I mean, has she actually killed anyone herself? Did she really feel she had a choice not to go out there? I do agree with some others here that any form of extremism is potentially dangerous to any society. In the end you have to ask what good there is in it? The trouble with these kind of difficult situations is that it’s all too easy to sit back in our arm chair and postulate. If any one of us had innocent family members or friends bombed by armed forces, I’m sure our view would be very different. The anger could even cause us to retaliate in a similar way. The thing is, peace will never come through bombing people. It comes through educating people (especially in high places) that we either have a choice of living a life of continually looking behind our backs, or a life where we can trust eachother. I doubt we will get anywhere near a world like that in our lifetime, but those who have tried to forgive, let go and move on in the past, have helped us get closer to that world. I personally believe religion has been used to control people for financial gain for many years. The sad thing is that at the heart of most religions, a common philosophy of love and hope exists. This is one of the reasons I don’t like to associate myself with any label (religion or political party for example). I just try as best as I can to folllow the good, wherever it flows. One last thought is that we tend to learn our biggest lessons in life by making our own mistakes. I certainly know as a parent that if you try to to tell your kids how to live their lives, it often backfires. It’s the same with all of us really, after all we are all someone’s children.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Feb 17, 2019 1:24:23 GMT
It’s important that in any debate you get both sides of the argument. I think it’s good for an individual to throw in arguments from both sides if possible because it shows that that person is taking both sides on board That was sort of my intention, but, looking back, I should have tidied those outlooks up.* Below (and previously) I did make my viewpoint known: "I stand by my own idea, that, yes, she could be allowed back into the UK on condition that within a 5-year period she has studied something and has found a job/career and is working hard to put something into British society. I would suggest she be removed far from the evil influences of those who put her on the road to ISIS in the first place. I am usually willing to give people a second chance." I am still of this opinion, that a second chance could be offered, on a provisional basis - if no improvement after, say, 5 years, then it's deportation for good. The elephant in the room, of course, is why is this kind of 'radicalisation' taking place in the UK for starters? (or is there any of this at all, is it just another nonsense story?) *having a look now. One reason radicalisation is happening is that Britain encourages the green shoots that can lead to it. The Notting Hill Carnival is such a wonderful event apparently, despite the multiple stabbings that occur each year. A more subtle example: St Patricks day is something to be celebrated apparently, despite having bugger all to do with Britain yet St. George's day passes off quietly, apparently a day of great shame.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 7:37:27 GMT
If any one of us had innocent family members or friends bombed by armed forces, I’m sure our view would be very different. The anger could even cause us to retaliate in a similar way. Exactly. This is one of the problems with religion. It is used to suggest that everyone else with the same religion is somehow related so "the Americans are bombing your brothers (and sisters)" is used as a recruitment message. When the reality is they (the religious ones) are daggers drawn with each other anyway. I personally think retaliation is justified. IF the twin towers was an attack rather than a setup by the CIA then these people are what you call "the enemy". Just because they don't have access to fighter jets and cruise missiles they used crewed missiles instead. They have a right to retaliate against aggression. Basic human right. Surely you can't expect to destroy peoples lives and kill thousands of non combatants and not get any retaliation. The old "eye for an eye" thing kicks in surely. Never mind religion in order to justify large scale slaughter you must accept it may come back to you in some form. Its all pointless and driven by profits anyway either natural resources or arms trade. Fighting for peace is like fucking for chastity but its good for business.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 7:47:13 GMT
That was sort of my intention, but, looking back, I should have tidied those outlooks up.* Below (and previously) I did make my viewpoint known: "I stand by my own idea, that, yes, she could be allowed back into the UK on condition that within a 5-year period she has studied something and has found a job/career and is working hard to put something into British society. I would suggest she be removed far from the evil influences of those who put her on the road to ISIS in the first place. I am usually willing to give people a second chance." I am still of this opinion, that a second chance could be offered, on a provisional basis - if no improvement after, say, 5 years, then it's deportation for good. The elephant in the room, of course, is why is this kind of 'radicalisation' taking place in the UK for starters? (or is there any of this at all, is it just another nonsense story?) *having a look now. One reason radicalisation is happening is that Britain encourages the green shoots that can lead to it. The Notting Hill Carnival is such a wonderful event apparently, despite the multiple stabbings that occur each year. A more subtle example: St Patricks day is something to be celebrated apparently, despite having bugger all to do with Britain yet St. George's day passes off quietly, apparently a day of great shame. I’m not sure whether the Notting Hill stabbings are race motivated, more like getting pissed and being in a very crowded environment I suspect St Patrick’s day is a good example how we can all celebrate a country’s culture worldwide without stabbings! As to your point about us not making much out of St. George’s day, I agree that it’s a shame that we are losing not only our English culture, but British culture. That may be partially due to the effect of multiculturalism, but I suspect it’s mainly because most of us can’t be arsed to celebrate it. It’s a valid point thogh, what does it mean to be English/British these days? Maybe some of us are too scared to celebrate it because we are worried that it might be seen as a racist action. Personally, I’m not convinced. Funnily enough it’s also one of the reasons I don’t like the idea of a Europian State.. I like all the different cultures in Europe. I’d hate to see that get ‘normalised’.
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 17, 2019 7:58:50 GMT
I mentioned the George Orwell 1984 aspect - is there really a 'war' "out there" (where?). Sometimes 'we' are making progress (Hurrah! yell the masses of workers), sometimes 'we' have lost a battle (subdued silence from the masses as they spoon their gruel into their mouths in the dining hall with the television showing their 'Leader'). Who is the real enemy?
We don't hear much about the arms trade, do we? The people running this show like to keep it hushed. Members of the public definitely not invited, but their taxes are welcome to support the greasing of palms.
Of 'multiculturalism' I don't know what to make of it any more. But I am sure that the populations of Luton or Bradford are not welcome to live in the twee villages of the Cotswolds. Of course, you understand, this is nothing to do with the fact that the residents of the Cotswolds (or broker belt of Surrey/Cambridgeshire) are 'racist', it's because (as the residents of the Cotswolds say, with a slightly concealed snigger) "it's just that they can't afford to live here."
Education - yes, good - but nowadays Universities and colleges are driven by greed and profit - perhaps soon Degrees will be up on auction on Ebay - highest bidder wins? I think University courses should be free, but, after getting a degree and a job/career based on that degree, you should spend, say, 10 years in the UK paying some tax from that job back into the system, and not immediately running off to the USA to make mega bucks.
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Post by patty on Feb 17, 2019 8:19:11 GMT
Kids dress up for St Davids day here so I guess poor old George just aint got the appeal...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 8:26:18 GMT
I mentioned the George Orwell 1984 aspect - is there really a 'war' "out there" (where?). Sometimes 'we' are making progress (Hurrah! yell the masses of workers), sometimes 'we' have lost a battle (subdued silence from the masses as they spoon their gruel into their mouths in the dining hall with the television showing their 'Leader'). Who is the real enemy? We don't hear much about the arms trade, do we? The people running this show like to keep it hushed. Members of the public definitely not invited, but their taxes are welcome to support the greasing of palms. Of 'multiculturalism' I don't know what to make of it any more. But I am sure that the populations of Luton or Bradford are not welcome to live in the twee villages of the Cotswolds. Of course, you understand, this is nothing to do with the fact that the residents of the Cotswolds (or broker belt of Surrey/Cambridgeshire) are 'racist', it's because (as the residents of the Cotswolds say) "it's just that they can't afford to live here." Education - yes, good - but nowadays Universities and colleges are driven by greed and profit - perhaps soon Degrees will be up on auction on Ebay - highest bidder wins? I think University courses should be free, but, after getting a degree and a job/career based on that degree, you should spend, say, 10 years in the UK paying some tax from that job back into the system, and not immediately running off to the USA to make mega bucks. The real enemy are things like greed and selfishness. The problem is that they run through the veins of everyone on the planet. So you can’t really say that any particular person or label (e.g religion, political party) is evil, or our enemy. It doesn’t stop those in power using the media to brainwash us to think that though. On a positive side, I think we all have something inside us, perhaps it’s something to do with our conscience. I think deep down we all want to get along, but we are very fragile creatures and easily manipulated. I think it starts with trying to be kind to those around us and those we meet. If everyone tried to do that in the world, we’d all get along. My problem, and I suspect it is with everyone, is that fragility. Every day I show myself to be a hypercrite, but I do try. Well Chris says I’m very trying.
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 17, 2019 8:28:16 GMT
One reason radicalisation is happening is that Britain encourages the green shoots that can lead to it. The Notting Hill Carnival is such a wonderful event apparently, despite the multiple stabbings that occur each year. A more subtle example: St Patricks day is something to be celebrated apparently, despite having bugger all to do with Britain yet St. George's day passes off quietly, apparently a day of great shame. I’m not sure whether the Notting Hill stabbings are race motivated, more like getting pissed and being in a very crowded environment I suspect - how about looking at who exactly have been doing the stabbings, and asking them why. That should give a clue! I'd say it's just thieving, why would someone just drunk want to go a-stabbing?I agree that it’s a shame that we are losing not only our English culture, but British culture. That may be partially due to the effect of multiculturalism, but I suspect it’s mainly because most of us can’t be arsed to celebrate it. It’s a valid point though, what does it mean to be English/British these days? - I think at my age of 58, one tends to look back at the England of one's childhood, and wants those same old values but with improvement. With a knowledge of Britain's history we can see the bad things of the past (eg. poor working conditions), and the good things (inventions such as canals & railways & air travel, women treated not as pack-animals, all kinds of 'rights' and sensible laws).
-I think frustration comes about by seeing 'immigrants' to the UK not wanting to improve things for the UK but to import their values from their homelands, with no intention of 'integrating' or respecting the culture of the UK; many are just in other countries to make money with the intention of having a retirement home in their old country where they may live like Royalty on a British pension amongst those who never got out in the first place.-What does it mean to be English/British these days? Not easy, unless you go by those who have ancestry stretching back, let's say, 500 years, with ancestors only from Britain?
Funnily enough it’s also one of the reasons I don’t like the idea of a European State.. I like all the different cultures in Europe. I’d hate to see that get ‘normalised’. -But surely this is the very thing you don't want? You like all the different cultures. These have come about because you have Swiss in Switzerland (families stretching back 500 years), Italians in Italy (families stretching back 500 years), Greeks in Greece (families stretching back 500 years). They have gradually made their countries what they are through their own trials and tribulations, fighting their own battles against other countries, having their own internal squabbles, producing their own artists and writers and politicians and inventors and union activists and feminist rights campaigners, etc. Suddenly with mass transport by plane and large ships and by road - from the invention of the internal combustion engine - those from previously far-away countries are relatively free to enter Europe and turn it into - what? It's a complicated and unfathomable issue. Well, I suppose we'll just have to see what happens.
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Post by bodger on Feb 17, 2019 8:35:26 GMT
in a war situation anyone who joined the forces of an enemy of the nation, or supported them, would have been brought back to the UK to face a war crimes tribunal and if found guilty may well be sentenced to military execution - a firing squad? .... which is the same type of fate that ISIS doled out to anyone captured during the actual hostilities. What does international law decree these days?
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 17, 2019 8:41:09 GMT
I mentioned the George Orwell 1984 aspect - is there really a 'war' "out there" (where?). Sometimes 'we' are making progress (Hurrah! yell the masses of workers), sometimes 'we' have lost a battle (subdued silence from the masses as they spoon their gruel into their mouths in the dining hall with the television showing their 'Leader'). Who is the real enemy? We don't hear much about the arms trade, do we? The people running this show like to keep it hushed. Members of the public definitely not invited, but their taxes are welcome to support the greasing of palms. Of 'multiculturalism' I don't know what to make of it any more. But I am sure that the populations of Luton or Bradford are not welcome to live in the twee villages of the Cotswolds. Of course, you understand, this is nothing to do with the fact that the residents of the Cotswolds (or broker belt of Surrey/Cambridgeshire) are 'racist', it's because (as the residents of the Cotswolds say) "it's just that they can't afford to live here." Education - yes, good - but nowadays Universities and colleges are driven by greed and profit - perhaps soon Degrees will be up on auction on Ebay - highest bidder wins? I think University courses should be free, but, after getting a degree and a job/career based on that degree, you should spend, say, 10 years in the UK paying some tax from that job back into the system, and not immediately running off to the USA to make mega bucks. I think it starts with trying to be kind to those around us and those we meet. If everyone tried to do that in the world, we’d all get along. -Yes, I approach people with neutrality, you have to hear them talk and see how they behave first, and judge them on their behaviour and actions, and what it is they are aiming for. However, civility with caution, as not everybody is nice and despite bending over backwards to accommodate someone you can find yourself stabbed in the back and cast to one side once they've got what they want.
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 17, 2019 8:53:02 GMT
in a war situation anyone who joined the forces of an enemy of the nation, or supported them, would have been brought back to the UK to face a war crimes tribunal and if found guilty may well be sentenced to military execution - a firing squad? .... which is the same type of fate that ISIS doled out to anyone captured during the actual hostilities. What does international law decree these days? Make of this what you will! "Ban all ISIS members from returning to the UK, remove their citizenship and passports" petition.parliament.uk/petitions/231521"Government responded This response was given on 27 November 2018 British citizenship can be removed if it does not render the individual stateless. Any risk posed by those who return from Syria will be managed and they may be investigated for criminal offences." -so if your only nationality is 'British' then it looks like the Government will not be taking it away.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 8:56:21 GMT
I’m not sure whether the Notting Hill stabbings are race motivated, more like getting pissed and being in a very crowded environment I suspect - how about looking at who exactly have been doing the stabbings, and asking them why. That should give a clue! I'd say it's just thieving, why would someone just drunk want to go a-stabbing?I agree that it’s a shame that we are losing not only our English culture, but British culture. That may be partially due to the effect of multiculturalism, but I suspect it’s mainly because most of us can’t be arsed to celebrate it. It’s a valid point though, what does it mean to be English/British these days? - I think at my age of 58, one tends to look back at the England of one's childhood, and wants those same old values but with improvement. With a knowledge of Britain's history we can see the bad things of the past (eg. poor working conditions), and the good things (inventions such as canals & railways & air travel, women treated not as pack-animals, all kinds of 'rights' and sensible laws).
-I think frustration comes about by seeing 'immigrants' to the UK not wanting to improve things for the UK but to import their values from their homelands, with no intention of 'integrating' or respecting the culture of the UK; many are just in other countries to make money with the intention of having a retirement home in their old country where they may live like Royalty on a British pension amongst those who never got out in the first place.-What does it mean to be English/British these days? Not easy, unless you go by those who have ancestry stretching back, let's say, 500 years, with ancestors only from Britain?
Funnily enough it’s also one of the reasons I don’t like the idea of a European State.. I like all the different cultures in Europe. I’d hate to see that get ‘normalised’. -But surely this is the very thing you don't want? You like all the different cultures. These have come about because you have Swiss in Switzerland (families stretching back 500 years), Italians in Italy (families stretching back 500 years), Greeks in Greece (families stretching back 500 years). They have gradually made their countries what they are through their own trials and tribulations, fighting their own battles against other countries, having their own internal squabbles, producing their own artists and writers and politicians and inventors and union activists and feminist rights campaigners, etc. Suddenly with mass transport by plane and large ships and by road - from the invention of the internal combustion engine - those from previously far-away countries are relatively free to enter Europe and turn it into - what? It's a complicated and unfathomable issue. Well, I suppose we'll just have to see what happens.I think more importantly, how many stabbings do we think have occurred in the history of the Notting Hill carnival? Maybe we should research that first? I know hundreds of peoole reacted violently to the recent stabbing, but that is different. Indeed, we are all a mix of different cultures in the first place. It’s great that every country had it’s own perceived culture too. It would be boring if we were all the same. If you’d read my views on the EU Foxy, they are nothing to do with culture. In fact I agree with the idealism of a united Europe (not with a cap ‘u’), even a united Earth. What I’m worried about is that humans have not reached a stage where we can trust a handful of people to run it. It’s that greed and selfishness thing again which is in all of us. When it’s in those who have lots of power, history shows it’s a disaster.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 9:11:43 GMT
I think it starts with trying to be kind to those around us and those we meet. If everyone tried to do that in the world, we’d all get along. -Yes, I approach people with neutrality, you have to hear them talk and see how they behave first, and judge them on their behaviour and actions, and what it is they are aiming for. However, civility with caution, as not everybody is nice and despite bending over backwards to accommodate someone you can find yourself stabbed in the back and cast to one side once they've got what they want.You hit a nail on the head there Foxy. It’s not about words, it’s about behaviour and actions. That’s why I read everything with a pinch of salt. The papers portray a warped view of reality. With all the censorship in this country it’s very difficult to get a true picture of reality. In some ways it’s easier just to concentrate on issues immediately around us. I wonder how long it will be before we no longer get access to web sites like this.... www.iamsyria.org/death-tolls.htmlI see Putin has been considering trying out an internet ring fence, so maybe we’ll have even less access to the truth....or should that be warped truth? Fake news, truthful news?
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