Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 8:48:04 GMT
Re experiments: you must have a control ie an uninsulated box. All boxes must be the same size, so it depends on box availability. Problems with boats includes things like vapour transmission, curves, odd shapes and stickability.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Jan 28, 2019 8:57:47 GMT
After some toing an frowing, cant think how to spell that lol. think i will do an experimnet on how insulations retain heat. This has come after so many GRP boat owner say that the foil backed bubble wrap is th ebest overall.
My experiment will be plywood box`s lined out with insulation being, bubble wrap of two thicknesses, 25mm/50mm Poly Foam board ( Celotex/JKinspan ) two Thinsulate types. Then each box will have a thermometer fitted inside and reading out side like the digital fish tank ones. Each box will be heated to 25deg and left and temps reading taken every 15 mins.
Never done an experiment before and just real interested in this as its been such a debate with so many GRP boat owners.
How does this sound?
Captain Faffer It will be interesting to hear the results. My opinion and experience is that foil backed bubble wrap is over hyped and not as good as made out. Better than nothing, but only just! I got some to add a layer of insulation to our Calorifier, but it didn’t seem to make much difference and the stuff felt a bit warm on the outside, which means it wasn’t insulating very much. Upside I suppose is that it doesn’t take up much space and easy to apply to curved and double curved surfaces such as you find in cruisers. Unlike Celotex/Kingspan. But the latter has the far better insulation properties.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2019 9:07:40 GMT
I insulated my colvic with a miniature solid fuel stove.
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Jan 28, 2019 9:12:16 GMT
After some toing an frowing, cant think how to spell that lol. think i will do an experimnet on how insulations retain heat. This has come after so many GRP boat owner say that the foil backed bubble wrap is th ebest overall.
My experiment will be plywood box`s lined out with insulation being, bubble wrap of two thicknesses, 25mm/50mm Poly Foam board ( Celotex/JKinspan ) two Thinsulate types. Then each box will have a thermometer fitted inside and reading out side like the digital fish tank ones. Each box will be heated to 25deg and left and temps reading taken every 15 mins.
Never done an experiment before and just real interested in this as its been such a debate with so many GRP boat owners.
How does this sound?
Captain Faffer It will be interesting to hear the results. My opinion and experience is that foil backed bubble wrap is over hyped and not as good as made out. Better than nothing, but only just! I got some to add a layer of insulation to our Calorifier, but it didn’t seem to make much difference and the stuff felt a bit warm on the outside, which means it wasn’t insulating very much. Upside I suppose is that it doesn’t take up much space and easy to apply to curved and double curved surfaces such as you find in cruisers. Unlike Celotex/Kingspan. But the latter has the far better insulation properties. I have used the foil bubble wrap insulation a couple of times but in different ways. (there is big variations in the quality of different makes though) I agree, used as a single layer and touching the material to be insulated it is not very good, as you say better than nothing. However the stuff gets a lot of it's properties from reflection and that doesn't work very well when touching the adjacent material. When I insulated the forward cabin of Sabina I followed the manufacturer's instructions (one of the good makes) and left a 12mm air space on either side of the insulation (I used 50mm cellotex between the frames then a 12mm batten in one direction, the foil insulation (Taped at all joins to form a vapour barrier) then another 12mm batten in the other direction and the ply lining on that. This has been very effective and that cabin is the warmest on the boat although it is only heated by a small radiator (cabin about 100 sq ft)
|
|
|
Post by patty on Jan 28, 2019 14:09:02 GMT
In Horror House, dependent on the room used a variety of insulating products..for the damp it was the polystyrene backed plaster board in the bathroom and I believe one bedroom. In my 'attic room' we used that bubble foil stuff all over ceilings and walls then plasterboard....that room ended up the warmest.. The only damp issue the house had at the end was in the kitchen cupboards next to the external back wall and the render outside was blown there and leaky gutter which could have been the root cause.
|
|
|
Post by faffer on Jan 28, 2019 17:56:01 GMT
Hey no worries boat is being done ( Gazza ) cleaned it out and started to varnish inside. Canopy is waiting for better weather at least dry. So in a way when i have time i will have a dabble. Make so many boxs and as said but use the most common used insulation that are used for boats. I still myself think the Celotex/ Poly boards are best insulation but folk say i am wrong, i wonder why they say that when its the best for boats in spray form. Lots of different situations as we know with boats with windows and ventilation etc etc but ths will show which is best insulation to use for keeping heat in. Its not a scientific experiment but a good one i reckon to show. If i get a spare hour now and then i will hav a dabble setting it up. Nothing will get in the way of the Bohemian`s launch date Captain Faffer
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Jan 28, 2019 18:08:31 GMT
Hey no worries boat is being done ( Gazza ) cleaned it out and started to varnish inside. Canopy is waiting for better weather at least dry. So in a way when i have time i will have a dabble. Make so many boxs and as said but use the most common used insulation that are used for boats. I still myself think the Celotex/ Poly boards are best insulation but folk say i am wrong, i wonder why they say that when its the best for boats in spray form. Lots of different situations as we know with boats with windows and ventilation etc etc but ths will show which is best insulation to use for keeping heat in. Its not a scientific experiment but a good one i reckon to show. If i get a spare hour now and then i will hav a dabble setting it up. Nothing will get in the way of the Bohemian`s launch date Captain Faffer I think celotex etc insulation is definitely the best - with one caveat, that it doesn't bend! Spray foam is the same material, but does "bend" (ie can be applied to curved surfaces). Trying to use flat sheets on a curved surface is likely to leave air gaps, and air gaps result in condensation forming on the cold surface, which is bad! If I were redoing a boat with a lot of curves I think I would look at getting in a contractor to spray foam it. Or you can get DIY spray foam kits (proabably result in a messy disaster though!).
|
|
|
Post by faffer on Jan 28, 2019 18:21:52 GMT
Hey no worries boat is being done ( Gazza ) cleaned it out and started to varnish inside. Canopy is waiting for better weather at least dry. So in a way when i have time i will have a dabble. Make so many boxs and as said but use the most common used insulation that are used for boats. I still myself think the Celotex/ Poly boards are best insulation but folk say i am wrong, i wonder why they say that when its the best for boats in spray form. Lots of different situations as we know with boats with windows and ventilation etc etc but ths will show which is best insulation to use for keeping heat in. Its not a scientific experiment but a good one i reckon to show. If i get a spare hour now and then i will hav a dabble setting it up. Nothing will get in the way of the Bohemian`s launch date Captain Faffer I think celotex etc insulation is definitely the best - with one caveat, that it doesn't bend! Spray foam is the same material, but does "bend" (ie can be applied to curved surfaces). Trying to use flat sheets on a curved surface is likely to leave air gaps, and air gaps result in condensation forming on the cold surface, which is bad! If I were redoing a boat with a lot of curves I think I would look at getting in a contractor to spray foam it. Or you can get DIY spray foam kits (proabably result in a messy disaster though!). When i insulated Bohemian with it i cut the inner side to form the curve in the bow and filled the gaps with can foam. yes it a pig to bend 50m but 25mm is a lot easier. As you on my next project i will get the spary foam kits, easier for a few hundred quid than faffing sticking boards down.
|
|
|
Post by bodger on Jan 28, 2019 20:12:09 GMT
I bought a cooler (lid with thermo-electric mechanism only) on ebay to make a cool box that fits the space I have available. I used 2 plastic nesting storage boxes with a gap between them of about 30mm all round, and filled the void with builder's aerosol polyfoam (needed a lot of vent holes under the base. I will report back on its efficacy in due course.
|
|
|
Post by patty on Jan 29, 2019 6:55:32 GMT
used celotex in Ants van and then the stuff on a roll..
|
|
|
Post by faffer on Jan 29, 2019 19:46:43 GMT
I bought a cooler (lid with thermo-electric mechanism only) on ebay to make a cool box that fits the space I have available. I used 2 plastic nesting storage boxes with a gap between them of about 30mm all round, and filled the void with builder's aerosol polyfoam (needed a lot of vent holes under the base. I will report back on its efficacy in due course. Yes i would liekto seehow that goes as its a job i need to do, another job, I was going to get a 12v cool box as made a draw for it but then decided not to and make one as you are, then decided not to and by one but then make one....and so on and so on.
|
|
|
Post by patty on Jan 30, 2019 7:33:01 GMT
I bought a cooler (lid with thermo-electric mechanism only) on ebay to make a cool box that fits the space I have available. I used 2 plastic nesting storage boxes with a gap between them of about 30mm all round, and filled the void with builder's aerosol polyfoam (needed a lot of vent holes under the base. I will report back on its efficacy in due course. Yes i would liekto seehow that goes as its a job i need to do, another job, I was going to get a 12v cool box as made a draw for it but then decided not to and make one as you are, then decided not to and by one but then make one....and so on and so on. I can understand multiple thought processes in decision making...its something I do so well...aided and abetted by lists and my best fiend Google
|
|
|
Post by ched on Jan 31, 2019 15:36:06 GMT
Ow do Faffer, I specify insulation products in my job albeit for them land lubber types. You might want to look into 'u' and 'r' values that the manufacturers of these products give as a heads-up on your experiment (I could bore you some more if you really wanted me to?). What gazza says rings true about the build-up of layers and this too can all be calculated to give a combined u-value (but obviously it's the insulation type and thickness that performs most of the 'work' in resisting the heat flow). As well as air tightness, we also factor in any thermal bridging in our designs that take account for parts of the structure that are less resistant to thermal transmittance i.e. fixings, timber studs etc (worth thinking about on a boat!) I always fancied using one of these Aergel products on a boat given the relative thinness: www.proctorgroup.com/products/spacetherm#wrapthermThey are a bit pricier than the others you mention (shame really as the manufacturing process of aerogel has been around since the 70's) but given the small area of a boat, it might stack-up financially. Flat I have a small house project which has sound insulation problems, just how easy is this stuff to affix to the existing inside walls? Also one wall of a bedroom which is cold, as it is not a cavity type wall. I have put some poly lining paper on the bedroom wall, but its not really a permanent solution as it has to be covered with wallpaper, and it is not really ideal insulation either. NBoat I see the Aerogel make insulated floor battens, these might work for cabin roofs, if they could bend to shape [thinking about cutting a number of "slices" out of the wood using a thick saw. I'm not 100 percent sure about laying floor insulation under engineered wood flooring, but if the material is very thin and semi permeable, so as not to trap condensate, I can see the benefit in winter. Hey Socks,
You have two types of noise 'Airbourne' and 'Flanking or Transmission'. The latter is a bit difficult to reduce on a retrofit and can be costly, but this site might help:
Airbourne can generally be reduced according to Egan's Law if you increase the airtightness and mass of the wall - so things like a parge coat of sand and cement, DENSE mineral wool (there are different types), two layers of plasterboard as opposed to one, sealing any gaps with silicone or specialist sound mastic (i.e. in the studwork and at junctions of skirting etc).
We specify Celotex insulation for upgrading solid brick walls - as other have mentioned, depending on the thickness/U-value you want to achieve, this can be bonded to the wall or fixed via battens (handy service cavity this way) - remember to tape and seal joints to form a vapour check layer, although there is lots of information on their site including a full set of installation instructions (may need to register):
As for Aerogel on the roof/floor of a boat, I'd not got so far as in detailing this up - obviously you want to avoid any thermal bridging/cold spots with fixings and the like. On houses we always specify a vapour check (i.e. layer of polythene) somewhere in the build-up but on the WARM side of the insulation to stop any interstitial condensation forming (shame you can't get laminated ply with a veneer one side and foil the other (like some plasterboard) as this would be ideal).
|
|
|
Post by tadworth on Jan 31, 2019 22:47:54 GMT
After some toing an frowing, cant think how to spell that lol. think i will do an experimnet on how insulations retain heat. This has come after so many GRP boat owner say that the foil backed bubble wrap is th ebest overall.
My experiment will be plywood box`s lined out with insulation being, bubble wrap of two thicknesses, 25mm/50mm Poly Foam board ( Celotex/JKinspan ) two Thinsulate types. Then each box will have a thermometer fitted inside and reading out side like the digital fish tank ones. Each box will be heated to 25deg and left and temps reading taken every 15 mins.
Never done an experiment before and just real interested in this as its been such a debate with so many GRP boat owners.
How does this sound?
Captain Faffer Foil bubble wrap is not insulation its a reflective barrier designed for a specific purpose in roofing, despite what some sellers claim its not insulation, they have been conning people for years . For a boat its just about worthless . The highest spec insulation on the market is vacuum panels, but like solar we will have to wait until the cost comes down . Saying that though , every increase in insulation equals less fuel to burn for heating, so a big cost at the insulation stage might pay for itself over the years.
|
|
|
Post by patty on Jan 31, 2019 23:21:25 GMT
After some toing an frowing, cant think how to spell that lol. think i will do an experimnet on how insulations retain heat. This has come after so many GRP boat owner say that the foil backed bubble wrap is th ebest overall.
My experiment will be plywood box`s lined out with insulation being, bubble wrap of two thicknesses, 25mm/50mm Poly Foam board ( Celotex/JKinspan ) two Thinsulate types. Then each box will have a thermometer fitted inside and reading out side like the digital fish tank ones. Each box will be heated to 25deg and left and temps reading taken every 15 mins.
Never done an experiment before and just real interested in this as its been such a debate with so many GRP boat owners.
How does this sound?
Captain Faffer Foil bubble wrap is not insulation its a reflective barrier designed for a specific purpose in roofing, despite what some sellers claim its not insulation, they have been conning people for years . For a boat its just about worthless . The highest spec insulation on the market is vacuum panels, but like solar we will have to wait until the cost comes down . Saying that though , every increase in insulation equals less fuel to burn for heating, so a big cost at the insulation stage might pay for itself over the years. I've been walking past a construction almost daily that looked like huge green lego bricks..apparently gonna be 3 apartments. Yesterday I watched as they poured cement down through them. Talked to lady who lived over the road and she said it was a German/Canadian build and that the green stuff that looked like Lego was in fact insulation and apparently would have bricks on the outside. I'm very interested but as yet not managed to talk to anyone working on site. ..I thought the 'lego' was recycled plastic .
|
|