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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 16, 2019 17:46:41 GMT
It's always the eastern Europeans/Russians. If they played Rugby you can bet it would cross over. They are simply countries that are behind the social / political times we inhabit here. Having lived in Poland I can confirm this is correct.
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Post by ianali on Oct 16, 2019 18:18:09 GMT
Indeed. No racists or hooligans from England are there? π³ A lot less / quieter than they were and it's a bit tricky when nearly all our players are foreigners? Ours got all loved up on e's in the nineties. Back in the late 70's and early eighties when the pubs shut at 11, the hour between 11 and 12 was known as smacking hour where I lived. All the thugs that hadn't pulled in the pub liked to smack someone at random on their way to the night club. The only way to get home safely was to leave well before 11. I really don't think that kind of mindless violence exists now, maybe because pubs shut at different times, maybe we've all moved on. Are you sure itβs not simply that you have moved on? I hear what you say about the mindless violence back then but I think you will find it still exists today. I think as we get older our lifestyles alter and we donβt see what we did as youngsters.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Oct 16, 2019 18:46:53 GMT
This surely cannot be about the sport ... it HAS to be about the people who go. I really don't understand ... any explanations or theories ? Certainly. I will say from the outset that I have no interest in football whatsoever. My Dad took me to two games at the Valley when I was about 6 or 7 and that was the most boring three hours of my life. Football is primitive tribalism. It is the modern-day equivalent of cavemen going to the next village, killing all of the men and stealing all of the women. Naturally taunting the enemy is a huge part of this.
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Post by lollygagger on Oct 16, 2019 18:54:09 GMT
A lot less / quieter than they were and it's a bit tricky when nearly all our players are foreigners? Ours got all loved up on e's in the nineties. Back in the late 70's and early eighties when the pubs shut at 11, the hour between 11 and 12 was known as smacking hour where I lived. All the thugs that hadn't pulled in the pub liked to smack someone at random on their way to the night club. The only way to get home safely was to leave well before 11. I really don't think that kind of mindless violence exists now, maybe because pubs shut at different times, maybe we've all moved on. Are you sure itβs not simply that you have moved on? I hear what you say about the mindless violence back then but I think you will find it still exists today. I think as we get older our lifestyles alter and we donβt see what we did as youngsters. Maybe. How about punks v skinhead, mods v rockers etc. Does that kind of tribal violence still go on? Maybe gangs have taken that space. Apart from "smacking hour" above it was mostly arseholes fighting other arseholes in my youth. "You looking at my bird?"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 18:56:49 GMT
This surely cannot be about the sport ... it HAS to be about the people who go. I really don't understand ... any explanations or theories ? Certainly.Β I will say from the outset that I have no interest in football whatsoever. My Dad took me to two games at the Valley when I was about 6 or 7 and that was the most boring three hours of my life. Football is primitive tribalism.Β It is the modern-day equivalent of cavemen going to the next village, killing all of the men and stealing all of the women.Β Naturally taunting the enemy is a huge part of this.Β Correct. Is it some kind of fluke that a standard football has very similar dimensions to a normal human adult's head? Me thinks not.
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Post by ianali on Oct 16, 2019 19:39:27 GMT
Are you sure itβs not simply that you have moved on? I hear what you say about the mindless violence back then but I think you will find it still exists today. I think as we get older our lifestyles alter and we donβt see what we did as youngsters. Maybe. How about punks v skinhead, mods v rockers etc. Does that kind of tribal violence still go on? Maybe gangs have taken that space. Apart from "smacking hour" above it was mostly arseholes fighting other arseholes in my youth. "You looking at my bird?" Police against the extinction brigade?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 19:41:38 GMT
I was taken to football by my Dad in the sixties.
Huge crowds (all wearing hats and ties back then) of blokes and lads (no women) but no trouble at all.
The trouble came later and the racist chants much later still I would suggest.
Tribalism could apply to other sports but doesn't seem to ... I'm sure tribalism plays a part but doesn't explain why football ... and international (not club) football too.
Rog
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Post by lollygagger on Oct 16, 2019 19:41:52 GMT
Maybe. How about punks v skinhead, mods v rockers etc. Does that kind of tribal violence still go on? Maybe gangs have taken that space. Apart from "smacking hour" above it was mostly arseholes fighting other arseholes in my youth. "You looking at my bird?" Police against the extinction brigade? Could be!
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Post by lollygagger on Oct 16, 2019 19:47:23 GMT
I was taken to football by my Dad in the sixties. Huge crowds (all wearing hats and ties back then) of blokes and lads (no women) but no trouble at all. The trouble came later and the racist chants much later still I would suggest. Tribalism could apply to other sports but doesn't seem to ... I'm sure tribalism plays a part but doesn't explain why football ... and international (not club) football too. Rog Foot the ball used to be an extremely violent game with players aiming to kick and otherwise injure others until they could no longer play - I believe England did it to Pele of our way to world cup glory?
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Post by Mr Stabby on Oct 16, 2019 21:11:25 GMT
I was taken to football by my Dad in the sixties. Huge crowds (all wearing hats and ties back then) of blokes and lads (no women) but no trouble at all. The trouble came later and the racist chants much later still I would suggest. That's probably because there weren't any black footballers in the 1960s, or at least hardly any. The first black player to represent England was Viv Anderson in 1978.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 22:21:47 GMT
I always liked the parody of 'The Green Eye of the Little Yellow God'. The first line of the original goes like this:
'There's a one-eyed yellow idol to the north of Khatmandu'
The rugby song version is priceless:
'There's a dirty stinking whorehouse to the north of Waterloo'
Some of the terrace chants are funny, but there aren't many on the same level of comedy. For one thing that is a rude song which references a poem popular at the height of the success of the British empire and probably originated in the changing rooms of Eton (or similar).
On another level, rugby was and is just as important to the Welsh valleys as the home counties, so in that sense rugby is a bit of a crossover sport. Compare it to tennis, for example - a sport not so popular in Cardiff. Nor cricket. The boat race? Not too many dressage events in Stoke-on-Trent, I'll bet.
The worst examples of violence, racism, and general thuggery belong by repute to London clubs like Chelsea, Millwall, West Ham, etc who probably felt they had a reputation to protect, which makes them victims of their own tosh. Note that they are in high crime-rate areas. Rotherhithe and Barking are not areas noted for their high level of Oxbridge candidates.
Rugby by contrast is a culture of hyper-machismo that sends itself up and the worst that occurs (mostly) is a rude song or two that seeks the shock value as much as Mr Stabby. Some unlucky fans die at football meets. Does anybody have an example of the same occurring at a rugby match?
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Post by ianali on Oct 16, 2019 22:45:17 GMT
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 16, 2019 22:52:03 GMT
I think the biggest difference between football fans and rugby fans is that the former sees their club as part of their identity, their culture, their very being. The latter on the other hand enjoy the day out, the banter, a few beers, a chance to see a new place maybe, but feel little passion for their chosen club.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2019 0:02:50 GMT
Oh well. I suppose it just confirms the popular belief that everything is going to shit. "The old order changeth, yielding place to new" (Tennyson) "Fly, you fools. Fly!" (Gandalf) ETA I did a very quick search of the web which suggests that many more footie fans have died as a result of violent and antisocial behaviour by other footie fans than is the case for rugby fans. Quite a few rugby fans have died as a result of being ridiculously pissed with varying results. I feel the officer in question may have a slight case of tunnel vision.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2019 8:57:10 GMT
The opening post was prompted by reports of racist chanting at an England international football match, sufficient to pause the game on two occasions.
The contrast with the international crowd behaviour at RWC in Japan was unavoidable.
Some people will behave badly at whatever event.
I wasn't seeking a 'rugby good football bad' discussion, just wondering why football of all sports has become the victim to these people.
Rog
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