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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2016 16:13:03 GMT
Knowing how technical the courts can be I can see a wicked defence from the refusal to licence etc to cruise on their waters. M'lud CRT do not own the water, although they appear to be claiming to. Could you ask them to prove they own the water. Take two glasses of water to the court, one from the canal and one from a puddle, and ask CRT to pick theirs out. I think these kind of discussions tend to go down a blind alley because the concept of ownership isn't real. All we really have is people controlling other people. We all 'sign up' to some form of agreement (law, rules etc) in the name of retaining our personal security. The problem is that the law and it's enforcement tend to favour those with money (another virtual concept). Which wouldn't be so bad if money was directly proportional to how useful we are in society. Those with brains have got away with controlling those with brawn like this for centuries. The problem is that those who have control are becoming more and more a minority (1% 'owning' 99% of the world type stuff). If ever the other virtual world of '1's and '0's disappears overnight, there will be a few surprises. Not sure how I got onto this from the ownership of water but....
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Post by Mr Stabby on Sept 11, 2016 16:53:20 GMT
Also - how do people own land? Where did 'ownership' come from in the first place? Oh, yes, now I remember - people were murdered for it. Blood diamonds, blood land, blood water. Henry VIII innit. On the north Oxford between Hillmorton and Braunston you can still see the ridge and furrow land the peasants used to farm before they were booted off. One ridge per peasant. But then came land enclosure and the field system. Plus, there was common land. "The fault is great in man or woman, who steals a goose from off a common. But what can be that man's excuse, who steals a common from a goose?"
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Post by Mr Stabby on Sept 11, 2016 18:12:06 GMT
Incidentally, I'm told that the reason my mooring fees are so cheap (£312 a year) is that the farm where I moor was owned by the same family who own it now when the canal was built and CRT can't charge the farmer a fee for the moored boats because it was a condition of being able to build a canal on his land that the farmer and his descendants were allowed to moor boats there without charge, in perpetuity.
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Post by Graham on Sept 11, 2016 20:57:00 GMT
I think these kind of discussions tend to go down a blind alley because the concept of ownership isn't real. All we really have is people controlling other people. We all 'sign up' to some form of agreement (law, rules etc) in the name of retaining our personal security. The problem is that the law and it's enforcement tend to favour those with money (another virtual concept). Which wouldn't be so bad if money was directly proportional to how useful we are in society. Those with brains have got away with controlling those with brawn like this for centuries. The problem is that those who have control are becoming more and more a minority (1% 'owning' 99% of the world type stuff). If ever the other virtual world of '1's and '0's disappears overnight, there will be a few surprises. Not sure how I got onto this from the ownership of water but.... I think you are quite correct. Not sure it will ever change well not until the land and money are divided equitably and who is going to decide that, no one.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2016 21:18:11 GMT
I think these kind of discussions tend to go down a blind alley because the concept of ownership isn't real. All we really have is people controlling other people. We all 'sign up' to some form of agreement (law, rules etc) in the name of retaining our personal security. The problem is that the law and it's enforcement tend to favour those with money (another virtual concept). Which wouldn't be so bad if money was directly proportional to how useful we are in society. Those with brains have got away with controlling those with brawn like this for centuries. The problem is that those who have control are becoming more and more a minority (1% 'owning' 99% of the world type stuff). If ever the other virtual world of '1's and '0's disappears overnight, there will be a few surprises. Not sure how I got onto this from the ownership of water but.... I think you are quite correct. Not sure it will ever change well not until the land and money are divided equitably and who is going to decide that, no one. As I said before, the last revolution wasn't that long ago. How a revolution in this day and age would exhibit itself is another matter. I think the dissent is there. The surprise Brexit vote may be a sign of that. The private conversations people have in pubs, at home, on the cut are very different to the spin which is portrayed through the British Brainwashing Corporation. The bottom line is that Joe Public aren't as stupid as some would like to believe. People are waking up to the bullshit.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Sept 11, 2016 21:35:01 GMT
The one thing Governments have learned is that revolutions only happen when people are hungry, which is why such an emphasis has been placed on making cheap, high calorie food available to the masses, so they are too fat to get off the sofa and build guillotines.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2016 21:50:53 GMT
The one thing Governments have learned is that revolutions only happen when people are hungry, which is why such an emphasis has been placed on making cheap, high calorie food available to the masses, so they are too fat to get off the sofa and build guillotines. Ha ha. That's very true. Don't they say we are only a few meals away from anarchy? I suspect any form of anarchy would come from hacking these days. Money, proof of ownership, security systems, mobile phone networks, media, transport are all dependant on '1's and '0's on a computer. I heard that a decision was made recently to continue to keep the law text on parchment. If the authorities were so confident in computer database sytems they wouldn't feel the need to do that. I still keep important notes on paper! In the end, the only true measure of worth we have is based on how we act with others and how much respect we have for eachother. Or more basically how nice we are to eachother. ...and I'm sure there are some nice bankers out there..
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Post by Graham on Sept 11, 2016 22:03:05 GMT
I think you are quite correct. Not sure it will ever change well not until the land and money are divided equitably and who is going to decide that, no one. As I said before, the last revolution wasn't that long ago. How a revolution in this day and age would exhibit itself is another matter. I think the dissent is there. The surprise Brexit vote may be a sign of that. The private conversations people have in pubs, at home, on the cut are very different to the spin which is portrayed through the British Brainwashing Corporation. The bottom line is that Joe Public aren't as stupid as some would like to believe. People are waking up to the bullshit. The people are better educated and have better communications with each other. That I suspect has ruled out the old fashioned cause of revolution simple hunger and added others based on the feelings of inequality caused by the lack of affordable housing, the lack of council housing and lots of other things that affect the less well off. Yes I agree Brexit was part of that revolution. Now I am not sure if May has caught on how deep the feelings are or even knows what the people really want. Not sure I do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 2:37:55 GMT
As I said before, the last revolution wasn't that long ago. How a revolution in this day and age would exhibit itself is another matter. I think the dissent is there. The surprise Brexit vote may be a sign of that. The private conversations people have in pubs, at home, on the cut are very different to the spin which is portrayed through the British Brainwashing Corporation. The bottom line is that Joe Public aren't as stupid as some would like to believe. People are waking up to the bullshit. The people are better educated and have better communications with each other. That I suspect has ruled out the old fashioned cause of revolution simple hunger and added others based on the feelings of inequality caused by the lack of affordable housing, the lack of council housing and lots of other things that affect the less well off. Yes I agree Brexit was part of that revolution. Now I am not sure if May has caught on how deep the feelings are or even knows what the people really want. Not sure I do. Ironically education and knowledge is part of the reason why people are starting to question the way they are governed and controlled. We all think we know how to run things better than our PM over a beer or coffee. I suppose it's a bit like a fish in a tank really. Spends all it's life swimming around and munching food occasionally, never questions anything. However if it could be educated it might think things like; maybe it wouid be better living in a bigger tank, I'd like to be able to chose when and what I eat, I'd like to meet other fish, I don't want to be controlled by this human, what's the meaning of life... What do we want? Good question. To live life freely without every move being watched by cameras and data mining (privacy). To be able to utilise our real gifts and talents in this world (rather than be made to work 9-5 doing something we don't enjoy or are even good at). To be valued for what we offer to society, not for how much money and status we have. To be able to spend quality time with those we love instead of having to chase money. Of course it's not just the money and power grabbing elite who are the problem. It's also our higher expectations in life which create the problem. Marketing forces brainwash us to believe we can only be happy if we have a bigger house, nice car, kids in university, latest fasion etc. Before we know it we drop dead with a heart attack before we actually get a chance to enjoy it without the stress of running that wheel. Sorry, I know we've gone way off topic. I'd be happy to spend a few days a year helping dredge the canals rather than pay CRT management a cut for water nobody owns.
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Post by kris on Sept 12, 2016 7:32:43 GMT
Why don't we start with a revolution on the waterways? Let's kick Crt out and take control.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 7:48:22 GMT
Why don't we start with a revolution on the waterways? Let's kick Crt out and take control. As you know Kris, I think it should be handed back to volunteers as it was in that spirit that the canals got renovated in the first place. Maintaining what is already there in theory should be easier. In order for that to happen you'd need to get enough of the right kind of people to organise themselves into a group which could be seen by the government compitant enough to take over from CRT. The advantage of a voluntary organisation is that in theory it would be cheaper to run. The question is whether you would find enough people with all the relevant skills willing to donate their time. From managers to people willing to dredge and maintain the infrastructure. Or do you mean burn down all the CRT signs?
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Post by kris on Sept 12, 2016 8:02:40 GMT
I don't think you could run it just through volunteers. I think you need some paid skilled staff. There is still a knowledge base in the bank staff, a lot of them really care about canals. What I'm talking about is getting rid of all the parasites in managment that get paid extoronate salaries and hardly know what a canal is. If you cut away all the deadwood there is enough money to keep the waterways in a good state of repair for the nation. This would mean kicking Crt out and setting up a different organisation. It would be impossible from within Crt the attitudes are to entrenched. Too many managers with their own little fiefdoms that they protect vigorously.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 8:27:10 GMT
I don't think you could run it just through volunteers. I think you need some paid skilled staff. There is still a knowledge base in the bank staff, a lot of them really care about canals. What I'm talking about is getting rid of all the parasites in managment that get paid extoronate salaries and hardly know what a canal is. If you cut away all the deadwood there is enough money to keep the waterways in a good state of repair for the nation. This would mean kicking Crt out and setting up a different organisation. It would be impossible from within Crt the attitudes are to entrenched. Too many managers with their own little fiefdoms that they protect vigorously. So how would you go about it? There are already organisations out there but they seem to have little say in what goes on never mind becoming a viable replacement for CRT. You'd also come up against the old boys network and any hidden plans the government have for the future of the warerways. Good luck!
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Post by kris on Sept 12, 2016 8:32:30 GMT
That's why it's called a revolution. I think the intention of the current set up Crt is to asset strip everything it can. Run the maintenance down to the bone, then break the system up and sell it off as a leisure facility. So unless we do something there won't be a waterways network left( as we know it) of course we could all just bury our heads in he sand and say it's nothing to do with me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 8:57:27 GMT
That's why it's called a revolution. I think the intention of the current set up Crt is to asset strip everything it can. Run the maintenance down to the bone, then break the system up and sell it off as a leisure facility. So unless we do something there won't be a waterways network left( as we know it) of course we could all just bury our heads in he sand and say it's nothing to do with me. A revolution means overthrowing a government, not an organisation running a waterway network. Those running CRT act on behalf of the government (and those who influence government) so in a sense you'd need to influence them. In a supposed democratic system that would involve lobbying your local MP or the appropriate minister. If that doesn't work then you could organise a demonstration as the NBTA do or join in with them. Personally I think they are the only boater organisation with any balls (although infraltration is always a danger with any organisation which is potentially effective). When that doesn't work, things start to get nasty and personal and certainly not for open discussion on a public forum. I'm all for the peaceful options myself. I'm too old for militant stuff. My head isn't buried in the sand though either.
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