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Post by Telemachus on Dec 17, 2020 23:32:09 GMT
In the news today, the 10 year old kid with no underlying health conditions who nearly died from Covid, had to spend several,days in an induced coma. So whilst you are probably right about the median age etc, those are just statistics and at an individual level Covid is capable of making almost anyone severely ill or dead. Only 1 in 1,000,000 people a year get killed by being run over crossing the road, far, far fewer than those dying of Covid, but that is a poor justification for promoting a strategy of not bothering to look before crossing the road. Oh and my mum is 97, still in her own home and quite active. If she had been deemed worthless and not worth preserving in her mid 80s, that would have robbed her of 10+ years of happy life. You are approaching retirement, perhaps when you retire and thus become useless to society you will save us all a lot of money by stepping out in front of a bus? I think the key thing here is that your mum obvioisly still thrives on life and is still happy. I don't think my mum is anymore and that has been made worse with the Covid situation. Our mums are happy to take the risk of hugging us, don't you think it shouid be up to them to make that call, not our government? You can only “make a call” like that if you are reasonably intelligent and in possession of the facts. So that rules out most of the population. Therefore, the government needs to save us from ourselves. After all, if we didn’t need a government to save us from ourselves, we wouldn’t need a government at all and that has never worked well. My mother is not worried about herself, she is more worried about the possibility of her infecting us when we visit on Christmas Day. And that is logical because she does have a carer come in each morning for 1/2 hr, and often it is not the same carer. And that carer has been in lots of other peoples houses. But since I am highly intelligent and with a mental age of 18 (and therefore invincible) I am prepared to take that calculated risk.
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Post by patty on Dec 18, 2020 7:14:32 GMT
Covid is an added extra to an already over burdened NHS..something had to give/be sacrificed. I wouldn't want to make the choices/decide policy with regards this Pandemic Its a tragedy that so many ops cancelled/treatments delayed etc.... ....but has the NHS been over burdened? The NHS stats don't appear to show this when you look at the percentage of available overnight beds for general and acute patients up to the second quarter of this year (September). Compare the data with the last 5 years for the same period. www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/2020 - 77.4% occupancy 2019 - 90% 2018 - 88.9% 2017 - 89% 2016 - 89.2% 2015 - 87.1% Maybe I have missed something here, if so I'm happy to be corrected. I know this is a very emotive subject from all angles, but let's not forget that the sacrifice you speak of is only justified by the fear of the NHS being overwhelmed. As I said, I fear that the fall out from all of the lockdown measures couid well overload the NHS in coming years due to cancelled treatments, operations and scans. Then the stress related issues of losing jobs, homes....well I'm just repeating myself again....but hopefully you see my point. I do struggle with 'seeing' statistics as they r just numbers without the whole picture So many routine ops/scans etc cancelled because of Covid and the fear that the Pandemic would overwhelm..plus hospital apts....I should have had an eye apt in March at the hospital..its a yearly thing so obv deemed non essential..possiblity of now getting one is zero...My sis paid private to get her cataract done because no chance on the NHS. So perhaps the reason that the NHS coped is because non essentials/elective surgery delayed. There is always a fear factor..people too scared to seek help I just don't think these numbers taken as numbers show the real picture Thats my opinion and I'm sure there will be other opinions. Thats the good thing about discussions we can all wade in with our own perspectives based on what we read.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 7:52:04 GMT
....but has the NHS been over burdened? The NHS stats don't appear to show this when you look at the percentage of available overnight beds for general and acute patients up to the second quarter of this year (September). Compare the data with the last 5 years for the same period. www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/2020 - 77.4% occupancy 2019 - 90% 2018 - 88.9% 2017 - 89% 2016 - 89.2% 2015 - 87.1% Maybe I have missed something here, if so I'm happy to be corrected. I know this is a very emotive subject from all angles, but let's not forget that the sacrifice you speak of is only justified by the fear of the NHS being overwhelmed. As I said, I fear that the fall out from all of the lockdown measures couid well overload the NHS in coming years due to cancelled treatments, operations and scans. Then the stress related issues of losing jobs, homes....well I'm just repeating myself again....but hopefully you see my point. I do struggle with 'seeing' statistics as they r just numbers without the whole picture So many routine ops/scans etc cancelled because of Covid and the fear that the Pandemic would overwhelm..plus hospital apts....I should have had an eye apt in March at the hospital..its a yearly thing so obv deemed non essential..possiblity of now getting one is zero...My sis paid private to get her cataract done because no chance on the NHS. So perhaps the reason that the NHS coped is because non essentials/elective surgery delayed. There is always a fear factor..people too scared to seek help I just don't think these numbers taken as numbers show the real picture Thats my opinion and I'm sure there will be other opinions. Thats the good thing about discussions we can all wade in with our own perspectives based on what we read. I don't think it's easy to see the truth anymore Patty, especially with the bias in the mainstream media. Stats also get twisted as we have seen in the past. The biggest problem with all this is that the public are becoming more and more distrusting of our government. We really would do better with less career politicians and more caring ones.
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Post by bodger on Dec 18, 2020 7:54:09 GMT
twat (fox not bp)
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Post by JohnV on Dec 18, 2020 10:12:33 GMT
Covid is an added extra to an already over burdened NHS..something had to give/be sacrificed. I wouldn't want to make the choices/decide policy with regards this Pandemic Its a tragedy that so many ops cancelled/treatments delayed etc.... ....but has the NHS been over burdened? The NHS stats don't appear to show this when you look at the percentage of available overnight beds for general and acute patients up to the second quarter of this year (September). Compare the data with the last 5 years for the same period. www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/2020 - 77.4% occupancy 2019 - 90% 2018 - 88.9% 2017 - 89% 2016 - 89.2% 2015 - 87.1% Maybe I have missed something here, if so I'm happy to be corrected. I know this is a very emotive subject from all angles, but let's not forget that the sacrifice you speak of is only justified by the fear of the NHS being overwhelmed. As I said, I fear that the fall out from all of the lockdown measures couid well overload the NHS in coming years due to cancelled treatments, operations and scans. Then the stress related issues of losing jobs, homes....well I'm just repeating myself again....but hopefully you see my point. yet again you are just reading the statistics and forgetting that there are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Peaks of admissions/bed occupancy occur every year for a very short peiod ....... Most organisations can cope with even a 100% load for a short time but this year it has been going on for months and months. Staff are not having slack times to gather their breath. No system can cope with working at either maximum or near maximum for month after month
Statistics like that only give you a snap shot in time and you need to read it as such
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Post by JohnV on Dec 18, 2020 10:28:07 GMT
Staff are not having slack times to gather their breath. "It is true that those working in ICU and general medical and respiratory wards were working flat out, but a lot on NHS staff were at a loose end. Which makes Jeff rather annoyed that Nicola has decided to give £500 of our taxpayers money to each Scottish NHS employee, regardless of whether they were working their arses off or just sitting around drinking tea for 6 months." It's bollocks. it was someone letting off steam but you are broadcasting it as a factual statement FFS grow up
Medical staff working in non covid areas cannot be as efficient and as productive as they used to be ...... why ? because of covid.
They might not be working in a covid area but all their working procedures have had to be modified to keep it a non covid area, This involves a hell of a lot of time just being used for changing ppe, handwashing etc. Rules on social distancing also reduce the number of people who can be working in one area again something that lowers productivity
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 10:31:46 GMT
....but has the NHS been over burdened? The NHS stats don't appear to show this when you look at the percentage of available overnight beds for general and acute patients up to the second quarter of this year (September). Compare the data with the last 5 years for the same period. www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/2020 - 77.4% occupancy 2019 - 90% 2018 - 88.9% 2017 - 89% 2016 - 89.2% 2015 - 87.1% Maybe I have missed something here, if so I'm happy to be corrected. I know this is a very emotive subject from all angles, but let's not forget that the sacrifice you speak of is only justified by the fear of the NHS being overwhelmed. As I said, I fear that the fall out from all of the lockdown measures couid well overload the NHS in coming years due to cancelled treatments, operations and scans. Then the stress related issues of losing jobs, homes....well I'm just repeating myself again....but hopefully you see my point. yet again you are just reading the statistics and forgetting that there are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Peaks of admissions/bed occupancy occur every year for a very short peiod ....... Most organisations can cope with even a 100% load for a short time but this year it has been going on for months and months. Staff are not having slack times to gather their breath. No system can cope with working at either maximum or near maximum for month after month
Statistics like that only give you a snap shot in time and you need to read it as such
The biggest issue with the statistics quoted is that General and Acute beds are lumped together, therefore you can't see the actual detail in where any pressure points are.
I also sadly note that all bed availability (not % occupied) has been dropping over the last 10 years, across all areas with the exception of maternity, sadly mental health bed availability has fallen by the largest %.
ETA - correction Learning Disability bed availability % decrease is the highest followed by mental health bed availability.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 10:47:51 GMT
....but has the NHS been over burdened? The NHS stats don't appear to show this when you look at the percentage of available overnight beds for general and acute patients up to the second quarter of this year (September). Compare the data with the last 5 years for the same period. www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/2020 - 77.4% occupancy 2019 - 90% 2018 - 88.9% 2017 - 89% 2016 - 89.2% 2015 - 87.1% Maybe I have missed something here, if so I'm happy to be corrected. I know this is a very emotive subject from all angles, but let's not forget that the sacrifice you speak of is only justified by the fear of the NHS being overwhelmed. As I said, I fear that the fall out from all of the lockdown measures couid well overload the NHS in coming years due to cancelled treatments, operations and scans. Then the stress related issues of losing jobs, homes....well I'm just repeating myself again....but hopefully you see my point. yet again you are just reading the statistics and forgetting that there are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Yes, that's why I look at the numbers, ignore the lies (words) and draw my own conclusions. I also watch parliment TV and listen to the MP's spin before it gets spun again by the media. Ironically MP's often reference newspaper articles, so it's all rather incestuous. Having said all that, without being able to visit every hospital every week, nobody can be really be certain whether they are overwhelmed or not. What I DO know is how much pain my brother was in due to a cancelled operation and how distressed my mum is.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 11:06:20 GMT
yet again you are just reading the statistics and forgetting that there are lies, damned lies and statistics.
Yes, that's why I look at the numbers, ignore the lies (words) and draw my own conclusions. I also watch parliment TV and listen to the MP's spin before it gets spun again by the media. Ironically MP's often reference newspaper articles, so it's all rather incestuous. Having said all that, without being able to visit every hospital every week, nobody can be really be certain whether they are overwhelmed or not. What I DO know is how much pain my brother was in due to a cancelled operation and how distressed my mum is. You may look at the numbers but do you fully understand where the pressure on bed numbers is and why and how that relates to Covid - I doubt it (I don't).
For starters,
1. Do most Covid patients require an acute bed? 2. What is the % occupancy of acute beds to general beds? 3. How many staff are required to provide reasonably good nursing on an acute bed v a general bed? 4. How easy it it to transfer general beds and staff to acute bed nursing?
Looking at a simple bed occupancy statistic tells you very little about why hospital staff are concerned about workload etc.
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Post by bodger on Dec 18, 2020 11:14:53 GMT
Staff are not having slack times to gather their breath. "It is true that those working in ICU and general medical and respiratory wards were working flat out, but a lot on NHS staff were at a loose end. Which makes Jeff rather annoyed that Nicola has decided to give £500 of our taxpayers money to each Scottish NHS employee, regardless of whether they were working their arses off or just sitting around drinking tea for 6 months." why the inverted commas?
- if you are saying it then you don't need them.
- if someone else said it then kindly provide the attribution.
your spouting garbage is doubly meaningless if there is no attribution, and you simply cause most forum readers to switch off.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2020 11:17:09 GMT
"It is true that those working in ICU and general medical and respiratory wards were working flat out, but a lot on NHS staff were at a loose end. Which makes Jeff rather annoyed that Nicola has decided to give £500 of our taxpayers money to each Scottish NHS employee, regardless of whether they were working their arses off or just sitting around drinking tea for 6 months." why the inverted commas?
- if you are saying it then you don't need them.
- if someone else said it then kindly provide the attribution.
your spouting garbage is doubly meaningless if there is no attribution, and you simply cause most forum readers to switch off.
I think Nick/Telemackus posted it, paraphrasing his partner/husband.
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 18, 2020 11:17:42 GMT
"It is true that those working in ICU and general medical and respiratory wards were working flat out, but a lot on NHS staff were at a loose end. Which makes Jeff rather annoyed that Nicola has decided to give £500 of our taxpayers money to each Scottish NHS employee, regardless of whether they were working their arses off or just sitting around drinking tea for 6 months." It's bollocks. it was someone letting off steam but you are broadcasting it as a factual statement FFS grow up
Medical staff working in non covid areas cannot be as efficient and as productive as they used to be ...... why ? because of covid.
They might not be working in a covid area but all their working procedures have had to be modified to keep it a non covid area, This involves a hell of a lot of time just being used for changing ppe, handwashing etc. Rules on social distancing also reduce the number of people who can be working in one area again something that lowers productivity
It was not “someone”, it was me. The source being an ex-NHS haematology CNS (cancer nurse specialist) who is my husband, on talking to several of his ex-colleagues who spent much of this year in frustration because the powers that be disallowed them to continue to do their jobs, by disallowing cancer patients to come to the hospital. Sorry if that doesn’t fit in with your view of how you would like things to be.
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 18, 2020 11:18:20 GMT
"It is true that those working in ICU and general medical and respiratory wards were working flat out, but a lot on NHS staff were at a loose end. Which makes Jeff rather annoyed that Nicola has decided to give £500 of our taxpayers money to each Scottish NHS employee, regardless of whether they were working their arses off or just sitting around drinking tea for 6 months." why the inverted commas?
- if you are saying it then you don't need them.
- if someone else said it then kindly provide the attribution.
your spouting garbage is doubly meaningless if there is no attribution, and you simply cause most forum readers to switch off.
I said it, earlier in this thread.
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 18, 2020 11:31:14 GMT
I can understand that people really want our NHS to be the fantastic institution it is sometimes made out to be. But the truth is that it is a nationalised industry and like those hopeless nationalised industries of the 1970, run incredibly incompetently and wastefully. Of course, in the main, the folk at the sharp end are pretty dedicated (though Jeff certainly knew some exceptions to that!) but above them are layers of incompetent self-interested institutionalised managers and bureaucrats, and above them government departments and ministers with no medical knowledge, only interested in their public sector pensions etc.
Having had a run in with / experienced NMS Grampian at close quarters, I know just how incompetent their management / HR etc really is.
The other thing to bear in mind is that whilst infection rates are high at the moment, we have moved on a bit since the spring and thus due to changes in the way the disease is treated, far fewer people end up on ventilators in ICU. As the vaccine programme rolls out to the most vulnerable first, there will be an increasing disconnect between the infection statistics, and the threat these represent. I’m not sure that the powers that be have worked that out yet.
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 18, 2020 11:33:34 GMT
why the inverted commas?
- if you are saying it then you don't need them.
- if someone else said it then kindly provide the attribution.
your spouting garbage is doubly meaningless if there is no attribution, and you simply cause most forum readers to switch off.
I think Nick/Telemackus posted it, paraphrasing his partner/husband. Husband. Would you say “partner/wife” if you were referring to someone else on here eg rog and Jane?
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