Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 17:43:00 GMT
if the cap fits then wear it - the cap badge should read "I don't give a fuck about anyone else, I'm alright jack".
That can be argued both ways. It's not just about the 66,052 who have sadly died so far and were tested positive for Covid 19. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who's lives will be shortened due to missed operations, missed scans, missed treatments. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who have lost jobs, homes and relationships during the lockdown measures and the effect of the fall out on their mental/physical health. All things which can't be measured as there is no test to show the effect of those things, but they are real and may overload the NHS in the future. Then what about the impact on our young. Are you drawing a pension like me? What sort of life have they had this year? Will they have a future like we did?
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Dec 17, 2020 18:30:53 GMT
My mum (100) and Chris's mum (93) are happy to take the risk to see us, but our government says no. Something is very wrong. Yep, hundreds of thousands of livelihoods have been destroyed, the BBC are reporting today that 4.4 million few medical scans were performed this year compared to 2019 which will lead to God alone knows how many deaths from undiagnosed illnesses but perhaps most bizarrely the Government seem to presume they can control who we meet in our own homes. The 4.4 million thing is pretty disgraceful. So on that one, I agree with you. Most of Jeff’s ex-colleagues in Haematology spent most of this year doing fuck all because they weren’t allowed to see any patients. It is true that those working in ICU and general medical and respiratory wards were working flat out, but a lot on NHS staff were at a loose end. Which makes Jeff rather annoyed that Nicola has decided to give £500 of our taxpayers money to each Scottish NHS employee, regardless of whether they were working their arses off or just sitting around drinking tea for 6 months.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 18:31:12 GMT
if the cap fits then wear it - the cap badge should read "I don't give a fuck about anyone else, I'm alright jack".
That can be argued both ways. It's not just about the 66,052 who have sadly died so far and were tested positive for Covid 19. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who's lives will be shortened due to missed operations, missed scans, missed treatments. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who have lost jobs, homes and relationships during the lockdown measures and the effect of the fall out on their mental/physical health. All things which can't be measured as there is no test to show the effect of those things, but they are real and may overload the NHS in the future. Then what about the impact on our young. Are you drawing a pension like me? What sort of life have they had this year? Will they have a future like we did? Sweden is as interesting example - in theory there are many reasons why it would do better than many other European countries - such as low population, greater % of spending on healthcare before the pandemic.
It chose not to impose lockdowns etc.
Result = a rough equivalent death rate as more heavily populated European countries (much higher death rate than other Scandinavian countries) and a less severe economic downturn than more heavily populated European countries (although more severe than other Scandinavian countries).
Whilst it is always difficult to compare countries against each other, my view is that the 'Swedish' model of coping with the pandemic has been a failure, and anyone who proposes uptake of a similiar model in a more heavily populated/less equipped country better start coming up with some serious evidence before I'll change my mind towards 'let the virus play out' sort of model.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 18:43:00 GMT
They did make quality cars but I think Saab and Volvo are now Chinese owned brands.
Not sure what else there is in Scandinavia other than cold weather and some interesting pop music groups plus of course the Fjords.
Maybe there is gold in them there hills. Or Lit Ium.
|
|
|
Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 17, 2020 19:00:17 GMT
|
|
|
Post by patty on Dec 17, 2020 19:00:31 GMT
They did make quality cars but I think Saab and Volvo are now Chinese owned brands. Not sure what else there is in Scandinavia other than cold weather and some interesting pop music groups plus of course the Fjords. Maybe there is gold in them there hills. Or Lit Ium. I enjoyed my visits to Sweden..some lovely cities... Wouldn't go now...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 19:45:32 GMT
That can be argued both ways. It's not just about the 66,052 who have sadly died so far and were tested positive for Covid 19. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who's lives will be shortened due to missed operations, missed scans, missed treatments. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who have lost jobs, homes and relationships during the lockdown measures and the effect of the fall out on their mental/physical health. All things which can't be measured as there is no test to show the effect of those things, but they are real and may overload the NHS in the future. Then what about the impact on our young. Are you drawing a pension like me? What sort of life have they had this year? Will they have a future like we did? Sweden is as interesting example - in theory there are many reasons why it would do better than many other European countries - such as low population, greater % of spending on healthcare before the pandemic.
It chose not to impose lockdowns etc.
Result = a rough equivalent death rate as more heavily populated European countries (much higher death rate than other Scandinavian countries) and a less severe economic downturn than more heavily populated European countries (although more severe than other Scandinavian countries).
Whilst it is always difficult to compare countries against each other, my view is that the 'Swedish' model of coping with the pandemic has been a failure, and anyone who proposes uptake of a similiar model in a more heavily populated/less equipped country better start coming up with some serious evidence before I'll change my mind towards 'let the virus play out' sort of model.
Sweden = 779 deaths per 1 million. U.K = 971 deaths per 1 million That is not a rough equivalent death rate as the UK though is it? Sweden is also far more popuiated than Norway and Finland, so I don't think that comparison is entirely fair. No doubt the density of the population is a factor in this , so I can see why different approaches are used accordingly. The other unknown is whether Swedens approach may have led to herd immunity quicker than us. If so, maybe our approach of continually delaying it with tiers and lockdowns may have been a mistake. Time will tell I guess. Sweden has managed to avoid many of the side effects of lockdown measures thoughout it's 10 million citizens. So if they did get it right, they hopefully won't see the fallout we will over the next few years. Despite anything else, they allowed everyone to manage their own risks, unlike our government who have treated us like kids. I think we have lost a lot of trust in our politicians this year.
|
|
|
Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 17, 2020 19:51:18 GMT
Sweden is as interesting example - in theory there are many reasons why it would do better than many other European countries - such as low population, greater % of spending on healthcare before the pandemic.
It chose not to impose lockdowns etc.
Result = a rough equivalent death rate as more heavily populated European countries (much higher death rate than other Scandinavian countries) and a less severe economic downturn than more heavily populated European countries (although more severe than other Scandinavian countries).
Whilst it is always difficult to compare countries against each other, my view is that the 'Swedish' model of coping with the pandemic has been a failure, and anyone who proposes uptake of a similiar model in a more heavily populated/less equipped country better start coming up with some serious evidence before I'll change my mind towards 'let the virus play out' sort of model.
The other unknown is whether Swedens approach may have led to herd immunity quicker than us. If so, maybe our approach of continually delaying it with tiers and lockdowns may have been a mistake. Time will tell I guess. To use a footballing analogy, the half-time score is irrelevant to the points awarded when the final whistle is blown.
|
|
|
Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 17, 2020 20:25:11 GMT
They did make quality cars but I think Saab and Volvo are now Chinese owned brands. Not sure what else there is in Scandinavia other than cold weather and some interesting pop music groups plus of course the Fjords. Maybe there is gold in them there hills. Or Lit Ium. I enjoyed my visits to Sweden..some lovely cities... Wouldn't go now... No, I wouldn't go there either if I was a woman. Well, not unless I wanted to be raped and murdered by an asylum seeker.
|
|
|
Post by bodger on Dec 17, 2020 20:56:40 GMT
if the cap fits then wear it - the cap badge should read "I don't give a fuck about anyone else, I'm alright jack".
That can be argued both ways. It's not just about the 66,052 who have sadly died so far and were tested positive for Covid 19. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who's lives will be shortened due to missed operations, missed scans, missed treatments. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who have lost jobs, homes and relationships during the lockdown measures and the effect of the fall out on their mental/physical health. All things which can't be measured as there is no test to show the effect of those things, but they are real and may overload the NHS in the future. Then what about the impact on our young. Are you drawing a pension like me? What sort of life have they had this year? Will they have a future like we did? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you suggesting that the NHS should just have got on with "business as usual"? How would you organise that while trying to keep Covid patients away from the other patientss? Do you believe that could/would have happened as the Covid infection and death rates steadily increased as a result of cross-infections creeping into the hospitals and the hospitals not having the resources to treat the seriously ill 80-year-olds? Would you ignore the critically ill Covid patients struggling to take a breath at home while you continued to hold clinics for people who are not critically ill but needing scans and other tests? There seems to be a general misconception that Covid either kills you or you get better, or even have no symptoms. Anyone believing that should look about them and observe the folk who have been suffering breathing problems for months - try spending 24 hours struggling to take every breath and being frightened to go to sleep because you may stop breathing. Then do it for MONTHS ! I'm not talking about the 80-year-olds, it affects some (a significant number) of patients of all ages.
Nobody denies the mental and financial suffering of students, parents, small businessmen, etc., but I have never seen any suggestions about how a reasonable and humane balance could be drawn. Maybe my judgement is influenced by being from a different generation, the one that saw its parents struggling to make ends meet after WW2, many of whom were suffering from what is now recognised as PTSD but who at the time were told Keep Calm and Carry On. They had backbone and determination to see it through. Today some families have difficulty putting food on the family's plates. We had rationing which was not very different. Nobody was or is expecting this situation to continue for years, as WW2 and post-war rationing did. We should see the light at the end of the tunnel by the summer. Covid has changed the lifestyle and life opportunities for millions. That's life - we must work our way through it. The longer we procrastinate about the rules the longer it will take to get to the other side.
|
|
|
Post by patty on Dec 17, 2020 21:15:49 GMT
Covid is an added extra to an already over burdened NHS..something had to give/be sacrificed. I wouldn't want to make the choices/decide policy with regards this Pandemic Its a tragedy that so many ops cancelled/treatments delayed etc... Trouble is hospitals are a breeding ground for infections and some patients in with other ailments are contracting Covid. Its a nightmare and I just hope its one that will soon be over.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 22:43:42 GMT
Covid is an added extra to an already over burdened NHS..something had to give/be sacrificed. I wouldn't want to make the choices/decide policy with regards this Pandemic Its a tragedy that so many ops cancelled/treatments delayed etc.... ....but has the NHS been over burdened? The NHS stats don't appear to show this when you look at the percentage of available overnight beds for general and acute patients up to the second quarter of this year (September). Compare the data with the last 5 years for the same period. www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/2020 - 77.4% occupancy 2019 - 90% 2018 - 88.9% 2017 - 89% 2016 - 89.2% 2015 - 87.1% Maybe I have missed something here, if so I'm happy to be corrected. I know this is a very emotive subject from all angles, but let's not forget that the sacrifice you speak of is only justified by the fear of the NHS being overwhelmed. As I said, I fear that the fall out from all of the lockdown measures couid well overload the NHS in coming years due to cancelled treatments, operations and scans. Then the stress related issues of losing jobs, homes....well I'm just repeating myself again....but hopefully you see my point.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 22:54:03 GMT
That can be argued both ways. It's not just about the 66,052 who have sadly died so far and were tested positive for Covid 19. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who's lives will be shortened due to missed operations, missed scans, missed treatments. It's also about the MILLIONS of people who have lost jobs, homes and relationships during the lockdown measures and the effect of the fall out on their mental/physical health. All things which can't be measured as there is no test to show the effect of those things, but they are real and may overload the NHS in the future. Then what about the impact on our young. Are you drawing a pension like me? What sort of life have they had this year? Will they have a future like we did? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you suggesting that the NHS should just have got on with "business as usual"? How would you organise that while trying to keep Covid patients away from the other patientss? Do you believe that could/would have happened as the Covid infection and death rates steadily increased as a result of cross-infections creeping into the hospitals and the hospitals not having the resources to treat the seriously ill 80-year-olds? Would you ignore the critically ill Covid patients struggling to take a breath at home while you continued to hold clinics for people who are not critically ill but needing scans and other tests? There seems to be a general misconception that Covid either kills you or you get better, or even have no symptoms. Anyone believing that should look about them and observe the folk who have been suffering breathing problems for months - try spending 24 hours struggling to take every breath and being frightened to go to sleep because you may stop breathing. Then do it for MONTHS ! I'm not talking about the 80-year-olds, it affects some (a significant number) of patients of all ages.
Nobody denies the mental and financial suffering of students, parents, small businessmen, etc., but I have never seen any suggestions about how a reasonable and humane balance could be drawn. Maybe my judgement is influenced by being from a different generation, the one that saw its parents struggling to make ends meet after WW2, many of whom were suffering from what is now recognised as PTSD but who at the time were told Keep Calm and Carry On. They had backbone and determination to see it through. Today some families have difficulty putting food on the family's plates. We had rationing which was not very different. Nobody was or is expecting this situation to continue for years, as WW2 and post-war rationing did. We should see the light at the end of the tunnel by the summer. Covid has changed the lifestyle and life opportunities for millions. That's life - we must work our way through it. The longer we procrastinate about the rules the longer it will take to get to the other side.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is real physical suffering and deaths from the lockdown measures too, not just the mental and financial suffering you mention. Yes, we have moved on since WW2 and we owe a lot to those who died fighting for our freedom. Let's hope we don't let them down now!
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Dec 17, 2020 23:02:43 GMT
In the news today, the 10 year old kid with no underlying health conditions who nearly died from Covid, had to spend several,days in an induced coma. So whilst you are probably right about the median age etc, those are just statistics and at an individual level Covid is capable of making almost anyone severely ill or dead. Only 1 in 1,000,000 people a year get killed by being run over crossing the road, far, far fewer than those dying of Covid, but that is a poor justification for promoting a strategy of not bothering to look before crossing the road. Oh and my mum is 97, still in her own home and quite active. If she had been deemed worthless and not worth preserving in her mid 80s, that would have robbed her of 10+ years of happy life. You are approaching retirement, perhaps when you retire and thus become useless to society you will save us all a lot of money by stepping out in front of a bus?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2020 23:16:34 GMT
In the news today, the 10 year old kid with no underlying health conditions who nearly died from Covid, had to spend several,days in an induced coma. So whilst you are probably right about the median age etc, those are just statistics and at an individual level Covid is capable of making almost anyone severely ill or dead. Only 1 in 1,000,000 people a year get killed by being run over crossing the road, far, far fewer than those dying of Covid, but that is a poor justification for promoting a strategy of not bothering to look before crossing the road. Oh and my mum is 97, still in her own home and quite active. If she had been deemed worthless and not worth preserving in her mid 80s, that would have robbed her of 10+ years of happy life. You are approaching retirement, perhaps when you retire and thus become useless to society you will save us all a lot of money by stepping out in front of a bus? I think the key thing here is that your mum obvioisly still thrives on life and is still happy. I don't think my mum is anymore and that has been made worse with the Covid situation. Our mums are happy to take the risk of hugging us, don't you think it shouid be up to them to make that call, not our government?
|
|