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Post by Jim on Feb 19, 2021 11:49:57 GMT
I've had similar problems with leaks through party walls/rooves?chimney stacks. I have access to an ali scaff tower and I have a cat ladder, so I just get on with it myself, sort the job. point up what needs pointing etc. A conservation area isn't as bad as listed building status. Lockdown hasn't stopped roofers working btw, so maybe find one, get a quote and talk to nextdoor's landlord. Put it all in writing to him.
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Post by Jim on Feb 19, 2021 11:53:15 GMT
I'm not absolutely sure but the offending wall in my house is flat, there is no chimney breast. Also, the chimney stack only has one pot on it and this is central to the stack. You'd expect that if it served more than 1 fireplace that there would be more than 1 chimney pot and obviously if there were more than 1, perhaps one had been blocked off, this would be to the side of the stack, rather than central. Ultrasound? Or some kind of sonar/seismic method to see what's behind the wall? Hammer and ear to wall? Can a camera be put on a string and lowered into the chimney, with a light, so you can see how all the tunnels go? Where are the blueprints to the house? Wiring diagrams, etc.? Nothing documented about the history of the building? Old photographs? Local people's knowledge? Well, that was my sensible post for today. It's downhill from here! We are talking rural wales. There must be a small boy (or girl) you could send up with a mobile phone so you can check the chimney.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2021 12:15:11 GMT
Capillary action.
I remember this when I had the misfortune to live in a house as a non-adult.
It was leaves. The wrong sort of leaves.
Trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2021 12:16:47 GMT
Lockdown hasn't stopped roofers working btw, so maybe find one, get a quote and talk to nextdoor's landlord. Put it all in writing to him. And make sure you are not liable for the man with the rope around the chimney and his H&S risk assessment !
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Post by Clinton Cool on Feb 19, 2021 13:40:48 GMT
I’ll mention another thing which is that if your house is anything like ours, there is an outer shell of stone, and an inner shell of timber / lath and plaster etc rooms. There is a gap between the inner and outer shell, which has to be ventilated. The timbers are pegged into the stone wall of course, but otherwise they must not be touching. This is because there is no damp proof course, and stone can be quite porous, What can happen is that decaying lime mortar crumbles and little bits of sand-like debris fall down between inner and outer walls. Sometimes this gets trapped and builds up such that it bridges the gap between the stone and the wood, and moisture gets into the plaster. The travelling moisture also carries “salts” which contaminate the plaster such that, even after the bridging issue is fixed, the plaster remains stubbornly damp. This is because the salts make the plaster hygroscopic - it literally pulls moisture out of the air. So in summary, if you have access to the loft space I would check at the edge of the timber structure where the damp is, look down and see if there is any debris bridging between stone and wood. I had this problem in our previous granite house, and have a similar problem in this house under a very slight leak from a roof light window. Just a few drips with very heavy rain and wind, but over the years it’s made a patch of the plaster in the ceiling of the room below, hygroscopic such that it is permanently damp despite the leak long since having been fixed. It can seem that these sort of damp problems are linked to rainy weather and thus indicative of a leak, but in fact it is down to the increased air humidity during wet weather. Interesting that. My bedroom, where the damp is, in in the eaves. The wall is plastered, no access to look at anything. I'm pretty sure that in my case it's rain entering from the chimney, rather than the issue you describe. It's been dry, pretty much, for the past 3 weeks. In this time the wall has dried out completely. I can see this because I've scraped off the paint over a fair section of wall. What was a darkish brown colour 3 weeks ago is now a lovely dry pink colour. Actually as I speak, heavy rain having started at 8 this morning, it's still dry and pink. I'm expecting this to change in the next hour or so, with the rain forecast to continue. Suggests to me that the water is coming in through a very small gap, it needs heavy and persistent rain to be able to make its way far enough down to affect me.
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 19, 2021 13:52:21 GMT
I’ll mention another thing which is that if your house is anything like ours, there is an outer shell of stone, and an inner shell of timber / lath and plaster etc rooms. There is a gap between the inner and outer shell, which has to be ventilated. The timbers are pegged into the stone wall of course, but otherwise they must not be touching. This is because there is no damp proof course, and stone can be quite porous, What can happen is that decaying lime mortar crumbles and little bits of sand-like debris fall down between inner and outer walls. Sometimes this gets trapped and builds up such that it bridges the gap between the stone and the wood, and moisture gets into the plaster. The travelling moisture also carries “salts” which contaminate the plaster such that, even after the bridging issue is fixed, the plaster remains stubbornly damp. This is because the salts make the plaster hygroscopic - it literally pulls moisture out of the air. So in summary, if you have access to the loft space I would check at the edge of the timber structure where the damp is, look down and see if there is any debris bridging between stone and wood. I had this problem in our previous granite house, and have a similar problem in this house under a very slight leak from a roof light window. Just a few drips with very heavy rain and wind, but over the years it’s made a patch of the plaster in the ceiling of the room below, hygroscopic such that it is permanently damp despite the leak long since having been fixed. It can seem that these sort of damp problems are linked to rainy weather and thus indicative of a leak, but in fact it is down to the increased air humidity during wet weather. Interesting that. My bedroom, where the damp is, in in the eaves. The wall is plastered, no access to look at anything. I'm pretty sure that in my case it's rain entering from the chimney, rather than the issue you describe. It's been dry, pretty much, for the past 3 weeks. In this time the wall has dried out completely. I can see this because I've scraped off the paint over a fair section of wall. What was a darkish brown colour 3 weeks ago is now a lovely dry pink colour. Actually as I speak, heavy rain having started at 8 this morning, it's still dry and pink. I'm expecting this to change in the next hour or so, with the rain forecast to continue. Suggests to me that the water is coming in through a very small gap, it needs heavy and persistent rain to be able to make its way far enough down to affect me. Yes, probably not hygroscopic then. But if it’s anything like our house, the chimney doesn’t go beyond the wall so any leakage around the chimney gets into the stone structure. It shouldn’t really be able to get across to the timber/plaster but unless it is bridged by debris. But of course the construction of your house could be quite different. Is there a loft space (even if inaccessible) ie a pitched roof but a flat ceiling upstairs?
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Post by Clinton Cool on Feb 19, 2021 15:46:45 GMT
Interesting that. My bedroom, where the damp is, in in the eaves. The wall is plastered, no access to look at anything. I'm pretty sure that in my case it's rain entering from the chimney, rather than the issue you describe. It's been dry, pretty much, for the past 3 weeks. In this time the wall has dried out completely. I can see this because I've scraped off the paint over a fair section of wall. What was a darkish brown colour 3 weeks ago is now a lovely dry pink colour. Actually as I speak, heavy rain having started at 8 this morning, it's still dry and pink. I'm expecting this to change in the next hour or so, with the rain forecast to continue. Suggests to me that the water is coming in through a very small gap, it needs heavy and persistent rain to be able to make its way far enough down to affect me. Yes, probably not hygroscopic then. But if it’s anything like our house, the chimney doesn’t go beyond the wall so any leakage around the chimney gets into the stone structure. It shouldn’t really be able to get across to the timber/plaster but unless it is bridged by debris. But of course the construction of your house could be quite different. Is there a loft space (even if inaccessible) ie a pitched roof but a flat ceiling upstairs? As far as I know/ can see it's a standard pitched roof. Imagine a bungalow with a standard pitched roof, and a loft. Mine is like this, apart from my bedroom being in the loft. So the ceiling of my bedroom follows the angle of the roof, rather than being flat. So, I can only stand up in the central bits of the bedroom. There's a very substantial oak support beam on each side, around half way up. The ceiling is painted timber cladding with, I suspect, quite decent insulation between it and the roof because even on a frosty morning, it's not cold in there. Not that we get many frosty mornings here.
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 19, 2021 19:00:21 GMT
Yes, probably not hygroscopic then. But if it’s anything like our house, the chimney doesn’t go beyond the wall so any leakage around the chimney gets into the stone structure. It shouldn’t really be able to get across to the timber/plaster but unless it is bridged by debris. But of course the construction of your house could be quite different. Is there a loft space (even if inaccessible) ie a pitched roof but a flat ceiling upstairs? As far as I know/ can see it's a standard pitched roof. Imagine a bungalow with a standard pitched roof, and a loft. Mine is like this, apart from my bedroom being in the loft. So the ceiling of my bedroom follows the angle of the roof, rather than being flat. So, I can only stand up in the central bits of the bedroom. There's a very substantial oak support beam on each side, around half way up. The ceiling is painted timber cladding with, I suspect, quite decent insulation between it and the roof because even on a frosty morning, it's not cold in there. Not that we get many frosty mornings here. OK so not much stone wall above the ceiling then, which makes it unlikely to be a crumbly lime mortar debris issue. Probably back to your original supposition! The other thing to consider perhaps, is what we in Scotland call the "skews" (not sure if same term used in Wales or not) which is the mortar at an angle at the junction between the slates and the wall (presuming it has a slated roof?). That can crack and degrade and let moisture into the roof timbers at the edges. An easy fix though, just chip out the old mortar (would probably come off in chunks anyway) and install new.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Feb 20, 2021 9:54:45 GMT
As far as I know/ can see it's a standard pitched roof. Imagine a bungalow with a standard pitched roof, and a loft. Mine is like this, apart from my bedroom being in the loft. So the ceiling of my bedroom follows the angle of the roof, rather than being flat. So, I can only stand up in the central bits of the bedroom. There's a very substantial oak support beam on each side, around half way up. The ceiling is painted timber cladding with, I suspect, quite decent insulation between it and the roof because even on a frosty morning, it's not cold in there. Not that we get many frosty mornings here. OK so not much stone wall above the ceiling then, which makes it unlikely to be a crumbly lime mortar debris issue. Probably back to your original supposition! The other thing to consider perhaps, is what we in Scotland call the "skews" (not sure if same term used in Wales or not) which is the mortar at an angle at the junction between the slates and the wall (presuming it has a slated roof?). That can crack and degrade and let moisture into the roof timbers at the edges. An easy fix though, just chip out the old mortar (would probably come off in chunks anyway) and install new.
I've not heard the term skews before I presume you mean a 45 degree or so mortar joint between the stone chimney and slated roof? Some are done like that around here but reading around it seems to be poor practice? The joint on mine is the more standard stepped lead flashings above lead soakers. All seem to be in good condition. There were a couple of gaps on the vertical faces of the stepped flashings which, I suppose, could enable strong winds to blow water behind them. I sealed these up with leadmate but it didn't solve the issue.
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Post by Jim on Feb 20, 2021 10:42:01 GMT
OK so not much stone wall above the ceiling then, which makes it unlikely to be a crumbly lime mortar debris issue. Probably back to your original supposition! The other thing to consider perhaps, is what we in Scotland call the "skews" (not sure if same term used in Wales or not) which is the mortar at an angle at the junction between the slates and the wall (presuming it has a slated roof?). That can crack and degrade and let moisture into the roof timbers at the edges. An easy fix though, just chip out the old mortar (would probably come off in chunks anyway) and install new.
I've not heard the term skews before I presume you mean a 45 degree or so mortar joint between the stone chimney and slated roof? Some are done like that around here but reading around it seems to be poor practice? The joint on mine is the more standard stepped lead flashings above lead soakers. All seem to be in good condition. There were a couple of gaps on the vertical faces of the stepped flashings which, I suppose, could enable strong winds to blow water behind them. I sealed these up with leadmate but it didn't solve the issue. I've had success with cromapol, a thick acrylic paint reinforced with nylon fibres. I've used it on porous stone on chimney stacks, overpainted gaps in flashing etc. good stuff for a bodge.
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Post by Isambard Kingdom Brunel on Feb 20, 2021 10:44:38 GMT
Is the flue capped or open to the elements?
If capped is there any ventilation for the flue?
It could be condensation within the flue if there is no ventilation top and bottom of the flue.
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Post by IainS on Feb 20, 2021 17:17:35 GMT
OK so not much stone wall above the ceiling then, which makes it unlikely to be a crumbly lime mortar debris issue. Probably back to your original supposition!The other thing to consider perhaps, is what we in Scotland call the "skews" (not sure if same term used in Wales or not) which is the mortar at an angle at the junction between the slates and the wall (presuming it has a slated roof?). That can crack and degrade and let moisture into the roof timbers at the edges. An easy fix though, just chip out the old mortar (would probably come off in chunks anyway) and install new. The mortar skew always strikes me as a bit of a bodge, although it seems to work most of the time, and must be a lot cheaper than lead soakers.
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Post by patty on Feb 21, 2021 8:11:49 GMT
Water will always find a way...... I've damp coming up and through in a few parts but cannot be bothered to sort properly so I just keep using damp spray n paint
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Post by phil70 on Feb 21, 2021 8:20:16 GMT
Bump Phil
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 22, 2021 8:02:04 GMT
OK so not much stone wall above the ceiling then, which makes it unlikely to be a crumbly lime mortar debris issue. Probably back to your original supposition!The other thing to consider perhaps, is what we in Scotland call the "skews" (not sure if same term used in Wales or not) which is the mortar at an angle at the junction between the slates and the wall (presuming it has a slated roof?). That can crack and degrade and let moisture into the roof timbers at the edges. An easy fix though, just chip out the old mortar (would probably come off in chunks anyway) and install new. The mortar skew always strikes me as a bit of a bodge, although it seems to work most of the time, and must be a lot cheaper than lead soakers. Yes it’s hard to see that it’s particularly waterproof, they don’t even seem to put waterproofing agent into the mortar mix as you would do with rendering/harling. But on the other hand, virtually all the granite Victorian housing around our way are built like that so it must be “adequate”. We had our house re-roofed about 5 years ago, some of the sarking was rotten at the edges (under the skews), but equally a lot of it wasn’t and since it dated back to 1870, that’s not too bad! In fact I think the rot was only because the previous owners had failed to maintain the skews in reasonable condition, otherwise it would probably have been OK.
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