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Post by cygnus on Nov 18, 2021 12:48:54 GMT
Thankyou tonyb for those last sentences of your post. I think we have covered the anatomy of a rudder/swan-neck ad infinitum, and possible repair solutions to nuclear physics level. In reality I think Jo has decided to go down the insurance route and all that entails. I would probably do the same if I was her. π
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Post by peterboat on Nov 18, 2021 12:51:11 GMT
There are no endorsements on the certifcate.
I am not trying to argue that you are not precluded from single handing at night, merely that only some polices have that restriction and that the Craftinsure product for narrowboats is not one of them.
This is not arguing with you this a trying to find out excersize
(The bit about GJW in the post was more for loddon, was just trying to cut down on the typing)
Now that @loddon and I now understand the difference in our GJW policies, something that is still bugging me is why peterboat Craftinsure insurance is different from yours. You did mention widebeam as opposed to narrowbeam as a possibility but I was also wondering if it is because Peter based in an area that uses rivers including tidal ones as a matter of course and yours possibly isn't ......(my home moorings have always been on tidal waters for both boats, loddon isn't) that made me then wonder if your insurance covers rivers just as a junction between canal or canalised section. If that is the case, I'm wondering if the normal includes tidal sections, or has limitations.
Can you remember off hand what yours says about tidal waters ? If you can't that's fine don't bother yourself with it ..... I was jusr wondering
(I suspect you probably checked before doing the Ouse)
(I don't think I am quite as anal-retentive as the Fox, but I do like to understand the whys and wherefores of things)
Its because the policy is based on the information you give them John, I am on a commercial waterway, that had when I first took the policy out numerous very big commercial boats traveling at night. I told them about this at the time so maybe it was applied and never removed as we now only have one big boat moving? In the event of something going wrong 1 person couldnt secure my boat at 33 tons plus from escaping. I have never read my new policies only the first one I got for Joyce so I might not have the restriction anymore? It could be because of our locks which as you know are dangerous to do in the dark on your own? a 20 foot climb down to a 33 ton boat is not safe in the dark on your own and its how a crew died on the Humber Pride
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Post by kris on Nov 18, 2021 12:58:57 GMT
I think one of the troubles is that he expects "anti" replies all the time so he is already at half cock ready to fire itβs a shame Tony is so abrasive, because I have a lot of respect for his knowledge especially of the Trent. But the way he delivers it, leaves a lot to be desired. On a personal level after the things tony has said about me and the way he has spoken to me both on here and in person. As far as Iβm concerned he can go and play marbles on the M1. I wouldnβt cross the road to piss on him if he was on fire.
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Post by cygnus on Nov 18, 2021 13:05:52 GMT
There is a weird and I mean weird thread/topic started by LadyG (Socks) on CWDF. I've only just noticed it, please tell me she's insured!
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Post by Andyberg on Nov 18, 2021 13:18:12 GMT
There is a weird and I mean weird thread/topic started by LadyG (Socks) on CWDF. I've only just noticed it, please tell me she's insured! Rest assured, it will be the incompetent insurance company / broker / credit card firm / postman or absolutely anyone else's fault if she isn't, certainly not hers! π
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Post by JohnV on Nov 18, 2021 13:18:50 GMT
There is a weird and I mean weird thread/topic started by LadyG (Socks) on CWDF. I've only just noticed it, please tell me she's insured! on page 2 she said she was going to talk to insurance ..... of course that doesn't mean she actually has a policy nor of course does it mean she has anything more than third party only.
(If the latter then she will be well stuffed as she has decided to go for what appears to be the expensive route)
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Post by cygnus on Nov 18, 2021 14:24:40 GMT
She's reading this and has messaged me. All is well, a bit of a glitch but she's covered. Must have been a worry though.
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Post by JohnV on Nov 18, 2021 14:49:12 GMT
She's reading this and has messaged me. All is well, a bit of a glitch but she's covered. Must have been a worry though. Good. I wouldn't like to think of anybody being totally hung out to dry.
It's a shame we will probably never get to find out how it failed and exactly where on the rudder stock it failed.
In my view the one downside of not trying some method to inspect more fully is that there could well have been an achievable "get you home" bodge
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 18, 2021 15:04:17 GMT
I'm not going to reply to any of the last couple of pages of posts individually, . . and certainly not to the trademark stupid ones from the specialist Thunderboat goon contingent.
What I will do is list a few facts that relate to the design of most narrow boat steering gear as it exists these days on pleasure craft as a scaled down and much lighter version of what was universally found on working boats, . . and how damaged steering gear, and sterngear, on those working boats was frequently removed for repair and re-fitted, to both loaded and empty boats, with the boat still afloat. Nothing of what I'm about to relate has come from theory or tales of the old days, . . ALL of it is what I learned from others as a lad, and from the many occasions over the last 58 years when I've removed, repaired, and refitted both steering gear and sterngear on working boats and pleasure craft when docking or craning out wasn't available.
1) From the time motorised working narrowboats, including the early steamers, first appeared on the canals in the 1920's in the form that some survive in to this day, the steering gear - rudder, stock and ramshead - was designed and intended to be removed for repair, and then to be replaced with the vessel afloat.
2) The rudder and stock - ellum and ellum pole in the working narrowboat parlance of the day - were invariably a one piece assembly.
3) The ramshead - frequently, and wrongly referred to these days as a 'swan's neck' - was invariably detachable, being fitted, as it always was, to the top end of the rudder stock on a square taper, and retained in place with single hexagon head 5/8" or 3/4" Whitworth bolt through a plate washer.
4) Sufficient depth of water to allow the rudder and stock assembly to be lowered far enough for the top of the stock to clear the underside of the counter and rudder (ellum) tube was sometimes lacking, particularly with a fully loaded boat. More than sufficient depth of water was, however, always to be found in a full lock.
5) The tools and equipment needed to both remove and refit a rudder and stock assembly were : - A blowlamp, a spanner, a 14lb sledgehammer, 3 x lengths of rope, 2 x lengths of chain , 4 x D-shackles, and a boathook.
One more essential, of course, is the knowledge of how to do the job, . . something which, incidentally, was always accomplished WITHOUT anyone having to get into the water.
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Post by thebfg on Nov 18, 2021 15:15:27 GMT
She's reading this and has messaged me. All is well, a bit of a glitch but she's covered. Must have been a worry though. Good news.
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Post by thebfg on Nov 18, 2021 15:16:19 GMT
So we dorve three people away with this one thread, is that a record?
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Post by IainS on Nov 18, 2021 16:32:49 GMT
This is not arguing with you this a trying to find out excersize
(The bit about GJW in the post was more for loddon, was just trying to cut down on the typing)
Now that @loddon and I now understand the difference in our GJW policies, something that is still bugging me is why peterboat Craftinsure insurance is different from yours. You did mention widebeam as opposed to narrowbeam as a possibility but I was also wondering if it is because Peter based in an area that uses rivers including tidal ones as a matter of course and yours possibly isn't ......(my home moorings have always been on tidal waters for both boats, loddon isn't) that made me then wonder if your insurance covers rivers just as a junction between canal or canalised section. If that is the case, I'm wondering if the normal includes tidal sections, or has limitations.
Can you remember off hand what yours says about tidal waters ? If you can't that's fine don't bother yourself with it ..... I was jusr wondering
(I suspect you probably checked before doing the Ouse)
(I don't think I am quite as anal-retentive as the Fox, but I do like to understand the whys and wherefores of things)
βTerritorial Scope: Ashore or afloat on inland non tidal waters and interconnecting tidal waterways of the UK, including the Broads, and the river Thames not seaward of the Thames Barrier.β I think if we ever decided to go north of Keadby on the Trent or SE of Selby on the Ouse Iβd check with them because that is not really an interconnecting tidal passage. But we donβt have any plans or desire to do that in a narrowboat. Ours is very similar, both for Kelpie and Gamebird. We let them know if we're going anywhere else. Usually, no problem, but, strangely, they were quite OK with the River Clyde down to Greenock, but are very iffy about the River Forth. Refused to cover River Carron to Leith, but agreed to Granton to Leith. Took a bit of persuasion to cover Forth upstream of the Carron as well.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 18, 2021 16:38:00 GMT
Thankyou tonyb for those last sentences of your post. I think we have covered the anatomy of a rudder/swan-neck ad infinitum, and possible repair solutions to nuclear physics level. In reality I think Jo has decided to go down the insurance route and all that entails. I would probably do the same if I was her. π Why do you think that "to go down the insurance route" precludes making an insurance claim for a far less costly method of repair ? It's a damaged rudder that can be taken off the boat at Barrowford, where the damage was done, and put back on again, at the same place, after repair, . . for a fraction of the cost of towing the boat to Barlick and having it craned out Making an insurance claim against damage sustained in this particular incident may well be futile in any case, . . particularly in light of the fact that the rudder stock failure is attributable to an inadequate or defective weld repair to something that shouldn't have been cut through in the first place. If the rudder stock had been in sound and serviceable condition prior to the incident at Barrowford a week ago, it would have bent and not broken. Craftinsure's Narrowboat policies specifically exclude - "The cost of making good any defect in repair or maintenance, or replacing or renewing any defective part, or making good any fault or error in design or construction."Taken together with the fact that the incident giving rise to the damage and the resulting claim occurred while the boat was being operated single-handed in the dark, the sub-standard repair to the previously cut rudder stock will almost certainly result in the insurance claim being turned down -- and rightly so. If the owner had any sense at all, she'd be looking to get the repairs done by way of the most economical option possible, . . NOT by way of one of RCR's typical no unnecessary expense spared song and dance extravaganzas.
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Post by JohnV on Nov 18, 2021 16:38:19 GMT
It's interesting what individual insurance companies consider risky
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Post by Andyberg on Nov 18, 2021 16:44:33 GMT
I'm not going to reply to any of the last couple of pages of posts individually, . . and certainly not to the trademark stupid ones from the specialist Thunderboat goon contingent. Is that because you've actually re-read the original comment I made about CWDF and realised you actually got it wrong? π Time to practice what you preach, ya dim twat! π Many, most, of TB's active members would do themselves a big favour by trying out a revolutionary new approach to posting. Something along these lines :-- 1) Engage brain -- 2) Read the post you want to reply to -- 3) Check that brain is still engaged, and that you have actually understood what you've read -- 4) Post reply.
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