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Post by macwolfelee on May 5, 2016 11:30:33 GMT
I've just voted for a party I've never voted for in 50 years, for a parliament whose existence I voted against nearly 20 years ago, in the probably vain hope of giving a bloody nose to a party whose very raison d'etre I disagree with.
Not my usual attitude to elections
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 11:59:54 GMT
I've just voted for a party I've never voted for in 50 years, for a parliament whose existence I voted against nearly 20 years ago, in the probably vain hope of giving a bloody nose to a party whose very raison d'etre I disagree with.
Not my usual attitude to elections You voted Tory to oppose the SNP,Hobsons Choice did they not used to call it? I have been gone 35 years but I don't recognise this Nationalism,once you get past the flag waving,where is the Economic Case? Please don't say who you voted for,it was only a perception of you I had formed through your Postings.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 7:43:27 GMT
I've just voted for a party I've never voted for in 50 years, for a parliament whose existence I voted against nearly 20 years ago, in the probably vain hope of giving a bloody nose to a party whose very raison d'etre I disagree with.
Not my usual attitude to elections Can I ask what your feelings are this morning as it is thought that the Conservative Party will now form the Opposition to the SNP.Thinking back to Donald Dewar and John Smith,Pat Lalley remember him ? It is all quite remarkable.
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Post by macwolfelee on May 6, 2016 11:26:38 GMT
I've just voted for a party I've never voted for in 50 years, for a parliament whose existence I voted against nearly 20 years ago, in the probably vain hope of giving a bloody nose to a party whose very raison d'etre I disagree with.
Not my usual attitude to elections Can I ask what your feelings are this morning as it is thought that the Conservative Party will now form the Opposition to the SNP.Thinking back to Donald Dewar and John Smith,Pat Lalley remember him ? It is all quite remarkable. As good as could be expected, I suppose. The SNP lost their overall majority over all other parties, against bookies' odds of 8-1. The Tories under Ruth Davidson will be a far more effective opposition than anyone else, with a gain of 16 seats, although I'm not a natural Tory supporter. The Greens made gains, and at least the Lib Dems didn't sink any further. So I suppose that could be regarded as a bloody nose. My vote wasn't needed, as the local Tory easily retained his seat. Another independence referendum is slightly less likely now, which will annoy the more extreme nationalists and the English Scotophobes such as this:
"This is good and bad news. On the one hand it probably marks the SNPs high water mark, their zenith, and on the other its bad news for us English who who want to see the back of the Scots and their country."
Although I didn't want this Parliament anyway, I'm reasonably cheered by the result.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2016 13:20:22 GMT
You tend to wonder if this Independence commitment is a millstone round the neck of the SNP? I realise it is their reason for being of course,but when you get past the Flag Waving,what relevance does it really have ?I remember the Billionaire Tom Hunter saying " Why don't you just get on and Govern" ? It seemed like good advice at the time and still does.
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Post by Higgs on May 7, 2016 9:22:32 GMT
I don't trust Nichola Sturgeon. There's something dictatorial and undemocratic about her manner. Ok, she just wants independence referenda until she gets the right result. It's not that I can't understand this wanting to shake off the yoke of the English, but they've recently had a vote on this. Nichola Sturgeon can't accept this.
She is still party leader and has to prove to the Scots that she can deliver as a party. They've lost a few seats, and that's not an improvement. Nationalist sentiment is not everything; a totally contrary mentality for enabling acceptance of an EU membership. As a would-be independent Scotland, member of the EU, how is she going to square her independence with towing the EU line. Maybe the SNP iron is cooling for the Scottish.
She just enjoys the power. She is not inclined to make any formal agreement with any other party to make up for the shortfall in the majority she'd have liked. I don't think her Nationalist ticket is such a healthy one. She needs cutting down to size so democracy can breath.
Her domestic policies will have to succeed to keep her play for independence alive.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 9:58:05 GMT
I don't trust Nichola Sturgeon. There's something dictatorial and undemocratic about her manner. Ok, she just wants independence referenda until she gets the right result. It's not that I can't understand this wanting to shake off the yoke of the English, but they've recently had a vote on this. Nichola Sturgeon can't accept this.
She is still party leader and has to prove to the Scots that she can deliver as a party. They've lost a few seats, and that's not an improvement. Nationalist sentiment is not everything; a totally contrary mentality for enabling acceptance of an EU membership. As a would-be independent Scotland, member of the EU, how is she going to square her independence with towing the EU line. Maybe the SNP iron is cooling for the Scottish.
She just enjoys the power. She is not inclined to make any formal agreement with any other party to make up for the shortfall in the majority she'd have liked. I don't think her Nationalist ticket is such a healthy one. She needs cutting down to size so democracy can breath.
Her domestic policies will have to succeed to keep her play for independence alive. I don't think the Economic Case for independence will ever be made nor can it in my opinion. That said its easy to see why we as a Country are at this juncture when you consider how little the Labour Party has done for Scotland.We had the incredible scenario where the SNP were as Socialist if not more so than the Labour Party something which Corbyn has still not adressed.I agree with your opinion of the SNP and their contrary position of wanting to be apart from the UK but at one with the rest of Europe.My attitude at the time of the last Referendum was if the Scottish People want Independence then they are the best placed to make that decision,they didn't and I don't think they ever will.It is similar to the Trump candidacy in the USA,its change they want not Trump, Scotland wanted change too but not necessarily Independence.
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Post by Higgs on May 7, 2016 10:18:03 GMT
Her domestic policies will have to succeed to keep her play for independence alive. I don't think the Economic Case for independence will ever be made nor can it in my opinion. That said its easy to see why we as a Country are at this juncture when you consider how little the Labour Party has done for Scotland.We had the incredible scenario where the SNP were as Socialist if not more so than the Labour Party something which Corbyn has still not adressed.I agree with your opinion of the SNP and their contrary position of wanting to be apart from the UK but at one with the rest of Europe.My attitude at the time of the last Referendum was if the Scottish People want Independence then they are the best placed to make that decision,they didn't and I don't think they ever will.It is similar to the Trump candidacy in the USA,its change they want not Trump, Scotland wanted change too but not necessarily Independence.
My thoughts are that Nichola Sturgeon is trying use the independence sentiment quickly. Alex Salmond resigned because he made independence his whole raison d'etre. Nichola Sturgeon seems to be doing the same. I think she is disrespecting the democratic vote that took place recently. That's why I say she doesn't come across as a democrat.
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Post by macwolfelee on May 7, 2016 10:32:42 GMT
The inconsistency of the SNP wanting separation from the UK but unity with Europe is one thing. It is indeed inconsistent.
But what about the inconsistency of wanting unity of the UK but separation from Europe?
To my mind they are equally inconsistent, involving as they do national pride, the resentment of being dictated to by a larger neighbour, and various economic arguments, all of which are understandable, but specious and shortsighted.
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Post by Higgs on May 7, 2016 10:46:53 GMT
The inconsistency of the SNP wanting separation from the UK but unity with Europe is one thing. It is indeed inconsistent.
But what about the inconsistency of wanting unity of the UK but separation from Europe?
To my mind they are equally inconsistent, involving as they do national pride, the resentment of being dictated to by a larger neighbour, and various economic arguments, all of which are understandable, but specious and shortsighted.
I agree, two contrary perspectives. The Scots have a very strong identity, but they are joined to the UK; England being the dominant partner. As an English person, I don't feel the same sort of connection with Europe. There's a movement away from centralisation within Westminster politics, nationally and in devolutionary terms, yet a movement towards centralisation with the EU. I'm concerned about the distance that the EU government represents.
I don't think democracy can work in the EU. Once the government elects to cede power to a once removed entity, your vote is watered down and replaced by a distant body that is dominated by commercial imperatives. Power reduction of the national government and your vote.
So, I wanted the Scots to remain in the UK as friends, but understand the attraction of self government.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 14:49:12 GMT
The inconsistency of the SNP wanting separation from the UK but unity with Europe is one thing. It is indeed inconsistent.
But what about the inconsistency of wanting unity of the UK but separation from Europe?
To my mind they are equally inconsistent, involving as they do national pride, the resentment of being dictated to by a larger neighbour, and various economic arguments, all of which are understandable, but specious and shortsighted. I have to take my hat off to you for your consistency and reluctantly I rise to your bait yet again. How can for example, various arguments be shortsighted and specious when in a previous post you agree that continued membership can only offer more of the same for the foreseeable future? I agree with your contention that Brexit may make Europe unstable and also your fear of Putin, but there is an alternative argument that this European State will be unstable with our membership or our exit because this is the nature of the beast.
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Post by macwolfelee on May 7, 2016 15:13:53 GMT
[/p] The Scots have a very strong identity, but they are joined to the UK; England being the dominant partner. As an English person, I don't feel the same sort of connection with Europe.
I don't think democracy can work in the EU. Once the government elects to cede power to a once removed entity, your vote is watered down and replaced by a distant body that is dominated by commercial imperatives.
[/quote][/p]
I think that very many Scots feel no sort of connection with England, just like you with Europe. (Obviously that doesn't apply to me - I don't regard myself as belonging to either, or any, country.)
And don't you think that the UK government is dominated by commercial imperatives? Especially the present one. There are many people who cherish the ideal of a United Europe; unfortunately they are even rarer in this country than in the rest of Europe.
Edited to say that I don't know what happened with the quotes there, but I think it's clear who's saying what.
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Post by JohnV on May 7, 2016 15:25:32 GMT
Quite a thought provoking thread !
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 15:35:00 GMT
Quite a thought provoking thread ! Been a great thread John and welcome back,I seem to have missed you for a day or two
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 15:40:13 GMT
I don't think the Economic Case for independence will ever be made nor can it in my opinion. That said its easy to see why we as a Country are at this juncture when you consider how little the Labour Party has done for Scotland.We had the incredible scenario where the SNP were as Socialist if not more so than the Labour Party something which Corbyn has still not adressed.I agree with your opinion of the SNP and their contrary position of wanting to be apart from the UK but at one with the rest of Europe.My attitude at the time of the last Referendum was if the Scottish People want Independence then they are the best placed to make that decision,they didn't and I don't think they ever will.It is similar to the Trump candidacy in the USA,its change they want not Trump, Scotland wanted change too but not necessarily Independence.
My thoughts are that Nichola Sturgeon is trying use the independence sentiment quickly. Alex Salmond resigned because he made independence his whole raison d'etre. Nichola Sturgeon seems to be doing the same. I think she is disrespecting the democratic vote that took place recently. That's why I say she doesn't come across as a democrat.
This is what I was getting at when I said Independence was becoming a millstone round the SNP neck in the same way Clause 4 was round the Labour Party
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