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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 2, 2018 21:09:57 GMT
Most people without children I believe, would have considered the post, the subject matter, and simple etiquette, and held their own counsel. Welcome to the world of Telemachus Rog There is a good reason why Mother Nature decided that TellyMackus should be a genetic cul-de-sac.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 21:15:34 GMT
A bit harsh don't you think. Besides, it's Friday night and without Telemachus, all us sad bastards would be talking to ourselves or watching the idiot lantern Rog
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 21:19:21 GMT
No. We don’t do retribution / vigilante / lynching. We allow the rule of law to take its course. Especially when the guy has already been found guilty and sentenced to the rest of his life in a US jail. Anyway, to be honest I find the hysteria surrounding the abuse of children rather irritating. (Pause for shocked gasp,) In that it seems to be worse to sexually abuse children than it is to kill them. Some muppet drunk / on his phone /speeding who mows a kid down is less of a pariah than a kiddy-fiddler. Seems wrong to me. The whole age of consent thing is a human imagining - in nature, animals tend to have sex when they become sexually mature. Ditto in some human cultures. In the West we introduce a ~ 5 year hiatus when children are sexually mature but no allowed to have sex. Of course this is part of my culture too, and I think it is right to have an age of consent, but I can also see that it stigmatises underage sexual activity, and -most importantly - that makes sexual abuse all the worse for the victim. In other words, all the fuss and hysteria and such courtroom shenanigans as we saw, only serve to make victims feel worse because they have it demonstrated to them just how awful what happened to them was, over and over and over again. And it is just an age threshold that varies according to how we are feeling at the time and thus has no basis in logic. In my case, it was at one point (quite recently in Scotland) an offence to have gay sex at all. Then it was OK at 21 whilst the breeders could make like rabbits at 18, then finally it all came down to 16. Why 16? Well why not, I suppose. But no science to it. So in summary, the hysteria surrounding child abuse including this OP, just makes things worse for the victims because it tells them just how awful what happened to them was, and I therefore dislike and reject it. Whilst that is a calm and rational analysis it doesn't take account of how somebody might feel if it was their actual daughter's who had been abused. I think it's laudable to say 'no I wouldn't do that, I would just sit calmly opposite him content he is going to do his time', but until we have been in that position I don't think I could say with 100% certainty I couldn't. I’m sure “somebody” would feel vengeful. Only natural. However I am an engineer and tend to think logically. So if it were my daughter, (having got over “where the hell did she come from”!) my primary concern would be her wellbeing. I would know that if I publicly made a display of my anger and actually damaged the defendant, I might end up in jail myself. And that REALLY wouldn’t help my daughter. And if the media and my behaviour were full of reinforcements about how awful the event was, that would just reinforce the victim feelings in my daughter. Being told over and over again that you are a victim, is not helpful. Of course anger sometimes overpowers logic, but for sure if I had done what that chap had done, I would be remorseful in the cold light of day afterwards because it was counter-productive in helping my daughter and done purely for selfish reasons.
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 21:22:48 GMT
Absolutely no. Unless you think the parents interests are more important than the children’s. If you don’t want to read my opinion, I suggest you join a closed Facebook group where you won’t have to read any opinion other than a mirror of your own. Then you can perpetuate your unintelligent hysteria to your hearts content. Why is an opinion that is different to yours 'unintelligent'? It isn’t necessarily, but when it isn’t based on science and/or logic, it is. If you have an opinion that the world is flat, sorry but I’m going to call that unintelligent. It is also unintelligent to resent other differing opinions that are based on science and logic. Anyway, do you want to discuss the important topic you started, or do you just want an argument?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 21:26:56 GMT
Can't argue with the fact that it was perhaps a selfish reaction, and I have no doubt the guy may regret his actions now, or in the future. My only observation is that, not having children, makes us the least qualified people to 'walk a mile in his shoes'. Opinions not 'forged in the fire' as it were, are largely theoretical tosh in my view, and as an engineer I would suspect you would have some sympathy for that premise. We're having fun tonight old boy! I'm at home cos of Jane's old Mum. Missing the boat already (only came home today) even though I want to spend time here. Emotions can be a real problem Rog
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Post by lollygagger on Feb 2, 2018 21:27:43 GMT
If it were my children, I believe they would be disappointed (possibly never forgive me) if I didn't take any and every chance for retribution so I would do whatever possible even though it might be against my better rational judgement. However, I suspect my rational judgement would be that the court would be far more lenient than I would like anyway.
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 21:34:27 GMT
Can't argue with the fact that it was perhaps a selfish reaction, and I have no doubt the guy may regret his actions now, or in the future. My only observation is that, not having children, makes us the least qualified people to 'walk a mile in his shoes'. Opinions not 'forged in the fire' as it were, are largely theoretical tosh in my view, and as an engineer I would suspect you would have some sympathy for that premise. We're having fun tonight old boy! I'm at home cos of Jane's old Mum. Missing the boat already (only came home today) even though I want to spend time here. Emotions can be a real problem Rog If you are saying that his reaction was not surprising, and forgivable, I’d tend to agree. In part because he is just as much a victim - of the mass hysteria surrounding this topic, and thus the behaviour expected of him. But was it the right thing to do? No.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 2, 2018 21:37:12 GMT
Whilst that is a calm and rational analysis it doesn't take account of how somebody might feel if it was their actual daughter's who had been abused. I think it's laudable to say 'no I wouldn't do that, I would just sit calmly opposite him content he is going to do his time', but until we have been in that position I don't think I could say with 100% certainty I couldn't. However I am an engineer and tend to think logically. So if it were my daughter, (having got over “where the hell did she come from”!) my primary concern would be her wellbeing. I would know that if I publicly made a display of my anger and actually damaged the defendant, I might end up in jail myself. And that REALLY wouldn’t help my daughter. And if the media and my behaviour were full of reinforcements about how awful the event was, that would just reinforce the victim feelings in my daughter. Did your training as an engineer not extend to giving you an understanding of the fact that you cannot understand how you would react to a situation involving your daughter, unless you actually had a daughter?
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 21:37:36 GMT
If it were my children, I believe they would be disappointed (possibly never forgive me) if I didn't take any and every chance for retribution so I would do whatever possible even though it might be against my better rational judgement. However, I suspect my rational judgement would be that the court would be far more lenient than I would like anyway. I would think that one of your children - a victim of a paedophile (heaven forbid) - would just want it all to stop and go away. They would not thank you for further raising the profile of the event, emphasising to them just how awful it was in the eyes of society, and possibly endangering your liberty and thus your ability to look after your child. Do you actually know your children’s minds? Or are you presuming?
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 21:40:47 GMT
However I am an engineer and tend to think logically. So if it were my daughter, (having got over “where the hell did she come from”!) my primary concern would be her wellbeing. I would know that if I publicly made a display of my anger and actually damaged the defendant, I might end up in jail myself. And that REALLY wouldn’t help my daughter. And if the media and my behaviour were full of reinforcements about how awful the event was, that would just reinforce the victim feelings in my daughter. Did your training as an engineer not extend to giving you an understanding of the fact that you cannot understand how you would react to a situation involving your daughter, unless you actually had a daughter? Not really. I don’t subscribe to the view that you cannot understand something unless you have experienced the exact same thing. If that were true, we are all doomed to repeat all the mistakes ever made by humanity for the past 10,000 years or so. Depressing! Anyway, I think my point is not about how someone might react, but how someone should react if they have the best interests of their child at heart. Your point is of course the exact same one that tries to deny people like me from having an opinion on boating because I am not a permanent live aboard CCer
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 21:42:03 GMT
We're getting closer.
I suspect guilt was a strong motive for him, and that remorse will follow.
But I maintain that you and I being childless, are attempting to speak a language other than our mother tongue.
My old Dad once faced down a group of youths in a bus stop, because they were using bad language in front of his children. His genuine anger won the day without blows being struck. We kids already knew 'our Dad' was a hero, but he was Superman thereafter.
I spoke to him years later about the incident.
He rightly rebuked me for asking about his motivation, after all, if I had kids I wouldn't have needed to ask.
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 21:44:18 GMT
Why is an opinion that is different to yours 'unintelligent'? It isn’t necessarily, but when it isn’t based on science and/or logic, it is. If you have an opinion that the world is flat, sorry but I’m going to call that unintelligent. It is also unintelligent to resent other differing opinions that are based on science and logic. Anyway, do you want to discuss the important topic you started, or do you just want an argument? Just wanted to pick you up on the logic/science side of things. Currently logic/science can't cure all evils with everyone. Don't fall into the trap that you are an infallible expert!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 21:44:58 GMT
Why is an opinion that is different to yours 'unintelligent'? It isn’t necessarily, but when it isn’t based on science and/or logic, it is. If you have an opinion that the world is flat, sorry but I’m going to call that unintelligent. It is also unintelligent to resent other differing opinions that are based on science and logic. Anyway, do you want to discuss the important topic you started, or do you just want an argument? But the issue isn't about 'logic'. Children are not brought into this world by engineering (in the traditional sense) so I'm afraid you are applying science to emotion, and it just doesn't work like that, yes that in itself will seem illogical but that's just the way it is. There is in inexplicable bond between (most) parents and children (and in turn grandchildren as I was talking about Lydia earlier), you perhaps would understand if you had one of your own but until you do you just won't 'get It'. You may do if you and your partner ever decided to adopt but whilst not completely dismissing your opinion its value is imho diminished on the basis you can never understand what that would feel like. I understand that his daughter's may not appreciate what he did but personally I forgive him that brief moment of red mist, because as I said I couldn't 100% gurantee I wouldn't do the same in that situation.
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Post by lollygagger on Feb 2, 2018 21:46:15 GMT
If it were my children, I believe they would be disappointed (possibly never forgive me) if I didn't take any and every chance for retribution so I would do whatever possible even though it might be against my better rational judgement. However, I suspect my rational judgement would be that the court would be far more lenient than I would like anyway. I would think that one of your children - a victim of a paedophile (heaven forbid) - would just want it all to stop and go away. They would not thank you for further raising the profile of the event, emphasising to them just how awful it was in the eyes of society, and possibly endangering your liberty and thus your ability to look after your child. Do you actually know your children’s minds? Or are you presuming? I know them and you don't, but thank you for asking, even if it was after suggesting I'm wrong. Children expect their fathers to be able to "sort" anything, to be all powerful protectors and never let them down. That's a fact.
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 21:49:29 GMT
I would think that one of your children - a victim of a paedophile (heaven forbid) - would just want it all to stop and go away. They would not thank you for further raising the profile of the event, emphasising to them just how awful it was in the eyes of society, and possibly endangering your liberty and thus your ability to look after your child. Do you actually know your children’s minds? Or are you presuming? I know them and you don't, but thank you for asking, even if it was after suggesting I'm wrong. Children expect their fathers to be able to "sort" anything, to be all powerful protectors and never let them down. That's a fact. If your children have been abused, you have already “let them down”. Making a huge public unlawful fuss about it afterwards just makes it worse.
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