Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 21:50:06 GMT
Lollygagger is spot on!
Responsibility for safety, no matter how irrational appears to ge a 'given' as a parent.
I think this is the point me and my Dad were at cross purposes about.
He knew this as a Dad.
I was just a bloke asking a question.
Rog
|
|
|
Post by lollygagger on Feb 2, 2018 21:54:12 GMT
I know them and you don't, but thank you for asking, even if it was after suggesting I'm wrong. Children expect their fathers to be able to "sort" anything, to be all powerful protectors and never let them down. That's a fact. If your children have been abused, you have already “let them down”. Making a huge public unlawful fuss about it afterwards just makes it worse. You have a point, but it isn't always possible that you could prevent it. Do you think the parents of the children murdered in Soham let them down, allowing them to be killed? I haven't read the article the post started with as we've moved onto generalisation.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 21:54:56 GMT
It isn’t necessarily, but when it isn’t based on science and/or logic, it is. If you have an opinion that the world is flat, sorry but I’m going to call that unintelligent. It is also unintelligent to resent other differing opinions that are based on science and logic. Anyway, do you want to discuss the important topic you started, or do you just want an argument? But the issue isn't about 'logic'. Children are not brought into this world by engineering (in the traditional sense) so I'm afraid you are applying science to emotion, and it just doesn't work like that, yes that in itself will seem illogical but that's just the way it is. There is in inexplicable bond between (most) parents and children (and in turn grandchildren as I was talking about Lydia earlier), you perhaps would understand if you had one of your own but until you do you just won't 'get It'. You may do if you and your partner ever decided to adopt but whilst not completely dismissing your opinion its value is imho diminished on the basis you can never understand what that would feel like. I understand that his daughter's may not appreciate what he did but personally I forgive him that brief moment of red mist, because as I said I couldn't 100% gurantee I wouldn't do the same in that situation. Forgive him? Yes, as I said he is a victim of, amongst other things, public expectation. But recommend it as a good course of action? Definitely not. You're right I don’t have children and haven’t therefore experienced that “bond”, but I have seen it in action at close quarters. And it can make people behave in a sub-optimal way because their chimp brain takes over, their human brain is pushed aside (ref Prof. Steve Peters book “the chimp paradox”).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 22:00:03 GMT
I know them and you don't, but thank you for asking, even if it was after suggesting I'm wrong. Children expect their fathers to be able to "sort" anything, to be all powerful protectors and never let them down. That's a fact. If your children have been abused, you have already “let them down”. Making a huge public unlawful fuss about it afterwards just makes it worse. That's the most appalling thing to say. I have seen families destroyed by abuse from close family members from Grandparents, Uncles, Aunts and siblings. To suggest parents "have already let them down" is beyond disgraceful. Abuse is initially of trust before any sexual contact takes place. You should be ashamed of that post. Rog
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 22:00:19 GMT
If your children have been abused, you have already “let them down”. Making a huge public unlawful fuss about it afterwards just makes it worse. You have a point, but it isn't always possible that you could prevent it. Do you think the parents of the children murdered in Soham let them down, allowing them to be killed? I haven't read the article the post started with as we've moved onto generalisation. With children murdered, things are a bit different because there is no longer any point in worrying about what the child is thinking / how your behaviour might affect them. Although of course they might have siblings. In the Soham case I’ve no doubt the parents felt guilt but the reality of it was that it wasn’t in any way their fault. As a parent you have to strike a balance between protecting them and allowing them to explore and learn to deal with the real, bad, world. Being over-protective is as bad as under-protective. Basically, as a parent you can’t win unless you are lucky!
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 22:01:41 GMT
If your children have been abused, you have already “let them down”. Making a huge public unlawful fuss about it afterwards just makes it worse. That's the most appalling thing to say. I have seen families destroyed by abuse from close family members from Grandparents, Uncles, Aunts and siblings. To suggest parents "have already let them down" is beyond disgraceful. Abuse is initially of trust before and sexual contact takes place. You should be ashamed of that post. Rog I’m not. Because you are misinterpreting and not reading it in context. The context was how the children would view the parents, not the cold logical reality of the situation as viewed by a 3rd party. Hence the quotation marks.
|
|
|
Post by lollygagger on Feb 2, 2018 22:04:54 GMT
Lollygagger is spot on! Responsibility for safety, no matter how irrational appears to ge a 'given' as a parent. I think this is the point me and my Dad were at cross purposes about. He knew this as a Dad. I was just a bloke asking a question. Rog Also, I can't really remember what it's like not to have them. But I do know something strange happened to me over the next year or two after I had them. The world was turned on it's emotional head. Things I hadn't given a hoot about became all important, I cried watching films which I'd never done before. Some sort of providing/protecting autopilot kicked in, beyond rationality. They can be fucking annoying though so maybe this strange change is also to stop fathers killing them!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 22:07:31 GMT
If your children have been abused, you have already “let them down”. Making a huge public unlawful fuss about it afterwards just makes it worse. That's the most appalling thing to say. I have seen families destroyed by abuse from close family members from Grandparents, Uncles, Aunts and siblings. To suggest parents "have already let them down" is beyond disgraceful. Abuse is initially of trust before any sexual contact takes place. You should be ashamed of that post. Rog The guy is an idiot. Although I suspect this; Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which there is a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others' feelings.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 22:09:28 GMT
That's the most appalling thing to say. I have seen families destroyed by abuse from close family members from Grandparents, Uncles, Aunts and siblings. To suggest parents "have already let them down" is beyond disgraceful. Abuse is initially of trust before any sexual contact takes place. You should be ashamed of that post. Rog The guy is an idiot. Although I suspect this; Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which there is a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others' feelings. So, nothing to say on topic. There’s a surprise!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 22:12:02 GMT
Give over, we know you're really quite ardent We 're all prone to 'spout' a bit about stuff we really don't know much about. Gives us all something to do on forums doesn't it. If we all agreed it would be better to watch Emmerdale Enders don't you think Rog
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 22:14:26 GMT
Lollygagger, that's a story I hear from parents all the time.
Glad some of you are willing to accept the pain.
It'd be crap if everyone was like me and Telemachus.
Rog
|
|
|
Post by lollygagger on Feb 2, 2018 22:14:55 GMT
You have a point, but it isn't always possible that you could prevent it. Do you think the parents of the children murdered in Soham let them down, allowing them to be killed? I haven't read the article the post started with as we've moved onto generalisation. With children murdered, things are a bit different because there is no longer any point in worrying about what the child is thinking / how your behaviour might affect them. Although of course they might have siblings. In the Soham case I’ve no doubt the parents felt guilt but the reality of it was that it wasn’t in any way their fault. As a parent you have to strike a balance between protecting them and allowing them to explore and learn to deal with the real, bad, world. Being over-protective is as bad as under-protective. Basically, as a parent you can’t win unless you are lucky! My eldest was at the school, I think in the same year. They weren't friends but he knew them, knew Huntley (as much as any kid in a large school would). We discussed it openly from all angles. That's why I picked on that as an example as those discussions help form my opinion of what my (now grown up but nothing changes!) kids would expect from me.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 22:16:19 GMT
Lollygagger, that's a story I hear from parents all the time. Glad some of you are willing to accept the pain. It'd be crap if everyone was like me and Telemachus. Rog It would solve the housing crisis though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 22:16:45 GMT
Whilst that is a calm and rational analysis it doesn't take account of how somebody might feel if it was their actual daughter's who had been abused. I think it's laudable to say 'no I wouldn't do that, I would just sit calmly opposite him content he is going to do his time', but until we have been in that position I don't think I could say with 100% certainty I couldn't. I’m sure “somebody” would feel vengeful. Only natural. However I am an engineer and tend to think logically. So if it were my daughter, (having got over “where the hell did she come from”!) my primary concern would be her wellbeing. I would know that if I publicly made a display of my anger and actually damaged the defendant, I might end up in jail myself. And that REALLY wouldn’t help my daughter. And if the media and my behaviour were full of reinforcements about how awful the event was, that would just reinforce the victim feelings in my daughter. Being told over and over again that you are a victim, is not helpful. Of course anger sometimes overpowers logic, but for sure if I had done what that chap had done, I would be remorseful in the cold light of day afterwards because it was counter-productive in helping my daughter and done purely for selfish reasons. I thought you were a failed engineer who turned to flying motorised palm trees across the North Sea?
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Feb 2, 2018 22:18:14 GMT
Anyway, just seen the courtroom scene again on the news. Sorry but I think it was just self-indulgent behaviour, not thinking about how it would affect his children.
|
|