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Post by Saltysplash on Aug 6, 2016 0:42:49 GMT
The Rules of Engagement for Police have always been covered by Common Law, Section 3(1) Criminal Law Act 1967 and Section 117 Police and Crimial Evidence Act 1984. Only Sect 117 of PACE actually empowers Police, The others are for everyone. The basis is use of Reasonable Force or such Force as is reasonable Its up to the Court to decide if the Force used was Reasonable. Nothing suggested in these Acts say as you said that "Leathal Force had to be used against the Police" in fact they allow for pre-emptive strikes if the Person is in such fear that they or someone else or property is in immediate danger. Your other point about Body Armour is laughingly naive . Firearms officers are trained to use alternative methods if there is an oppotunity to use them, This is not always possible in fast moving incidents as we saw with the shooting of the killers of Lee Rigby. Other weapons such a Tazer are not always effective especially on heavily clothed people so have their limitations of use and how long do you wait make that decision when a person armed with a knife is about to stab someone? I would be interested to see how you would react when faced with a "normal person who has a firearm and is inacpable of hitting a barn door at 20 feet" I would agree with your comments if the cases went before a judge & jury, but rarely if ever do they. With regard to your last sentence in several instances the person was arrested and put before the courts and without a tazer They have to pass the evidence test in order to get to court, this includes the result of the coroners courts, so if no evidence of Unlawfull Killing then it wont get to criminal Court. Are you suggesting the results of Coroners Verdicts are corrupt? As to your last sentance I likewise have put a few before the court without the use of a tazer, but every encounter is treated on its merits at the time. for instance, I once grabbed hold of a chap who was trying to stab himself with a knife......that was a good un, he was using a smoothing knife which kept bending every time he tried to stick it in himself.
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Post by PaulG2 on Aug 6, 2016 2:36:28 GMT
I've carried a gun for going on 40 years now. I started doing so when I was attacked by some drugged-out psycho who became enraged over some perceived slight whilst driving. (I jokingly gave the one-fingered salute to my girl friend as this fellow drove past going the other direction and he must have thought it was meant for him because he actually turned around and started chasing me. At one point in traffic he got out of his car and chased me on foot and he was so enraged he probably would have killed me if he'd caught me. I started carrying a gun that very.)
I have only been shot at once. I was out in the middle of nowhere skydiving and walking from a water project canal back to my car when bullets started buzzing past my head - that's a noise I'll never forget. I immediately went to ground and crawled to cover but having a gun in that instance would have made no difference because I never could see where the shooter was. This was wide open flat country with no echoes so the gun reports were just faint pops. There were four or five shots from behind me and as soon as I dropped they stopped.
In forty years I have only come close to using my gun one time. I was driving to my mother's home, which was at the end of a cul-de-sac deep inside a housing estate on a hill where you had to turn right, left right, left, right, right, left, right to get there and there was no reason to go that way except to go to the homes in the area. On this particular day I was followed to her house by a scruffy looking car with three scruffy looking individuals inside. As I approached the house, they slowed way down and held back until I was parked in the driveway and out of my car. There had been some pretty violent recent home invasion robberies in the area and that car and those people and the way they were acting was so out of place, I sensed that those fellows had robbery in mind. Rather than run in the house, though, I stood in the driveway with my 15 shot 9mm S&W in my hand, behind my back, and a big smile on my face. The car slowed down to a crawl as it passed me, and I just stared at the occupants with that big smile that exuded complete confidence in my position. We were at the end of the cul-de-sac so they just turned around and drove away. I was prepared to drop those guys the minute they stopped and approached me, but I never even had to display my weapon because I just looked so confident they decided I wouldn't make a good victim.
I like to target shoot and I can keep about a three inch pattern at 35 yards with my pistols, so I'm not too concerned about missing whatever I shoot at. Chances are, though, that if I ever came across a shooter my gun would be in the car and like everyone else I would just be ducking for cover. If I saw someone acting suspiciously with a gun, my best weapon would be my cell phone to call the police.
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Post by Graham on Aug 6, 2016 6:40:30 GMT
I would agree with your comments if the cases went before a judge & jury, but rarely if ever do they. With regard to your last sentence in several instances the person was arrested and put before the courts and without a tazer They have to pass the evidence test in order to get to court, this includes the result of the coroners courts, so if no evidence of Unlawfull Killing then it wont get to criminal Court. Are you suggesting the results of Coroners Verdicts are corrupt? As to your last sentance I likewise have put a few before the court without the use of a tazer, but every encounter is treated on its merits at the time. for instance, I once grabbed hold of a chap who was trying to stab himself with a knife......that was a good un, he was using a smoothing knife which kept bending every time he tried to stick it in himself. I think the evidence test is frequently ignore for police matters. Rather it should be automatic that the matter should go before a judge just on reasonable force. Being an armed force there was the temptation to use a weapon when not really needed and it took a lot of training to get into heads that it was an absolute last resort not the first. One I remember as a smile was a drunk complete with a 3 foot panga, I mean barely able to stand let alone hold the panga. He was in a dead end waving this thing around, no where to go. Colleague's reaction was to draw his weapon to dispatch the guy, he got upset when I used a baton to disarm and then gave him to my colleague to wrap up. Less paperwork and no coroners court to attend.
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Post by Saltysplash on Aug 7, 2016 19:12:27 GMT
They have to pass the evidence test in order to get to court, this includes the result of the coroners courts, so if no evidence of Unlawfull Killing then it wont get to criminal Court. Are you suggesting the results of Coroners Verdicts are corrupt? As to your last sentance I likewise have put a few before the court without the use of a tazer, but every encounter is treated on its merits at the time. for instance, I once grabbed hold of a chap who was trying to stab himself with a knife......that was a good un, he was using a smoothing knife which kept bending every time he tried to stick it in himself. I think the evidence test is frequently ignore for police matters. Rather it should be automatic that the matter should go before a judge just on reasonable force. Being an armed force there was the temptation to use a weapon when not really needed and it took a lot of training to get into heads that it was an absolute last resort not the first. One I remember as a smile was a drunk complete with a 3 foot panga, I mean barely able to stand let alone hold the panga. He was in a dead end waving this thing around, no where to go. Colleague's reaction was to draw his weapon to dispatch the guy, he got upset when I used a baton to disarm and then gave him to my colleague to wrap up. Less paperwork and no coroners court to attend. I've had more injuries from colleagues truncheons then from any suspect, As for CS Spray......no easier way to incapacitate your mates :/
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Post by Graham on Aug 7, 2016 23:35:03 GMT
I think the evidence test is frequently ignore for police matters. Rather it should be automatic that the matter should go before a judge just on reasonable force. Being an armed force there was the temptation to use a weapon when not really needed and it took a lot of training to get into heads that it was an absolute last resort not the first. One I remember as a smile was a drunk complete with a 3 foot panga, I mean barely able to stand let alone hold the panga. He was in a dead end waving this thing around, no where to go. Colleague's reaction was to draw his weapon to dispatch the guy, he got upset when I used a baton to disarm and then gave him to my colleague to wrap up. Less paperwork and no coroners court to attend. I've had more injuries from colleagues truncheons then from any suspect, As for CS Spray......no easier way to incapacitate your mates :/ We had nightsticks based on the American batons, to me a lot more effective than a truncheon. CS etc had not been invented at least not to be used by the police in my day. As for getting hit by a baton injury, worst I had was a pickaxe hand across the back of the head, thank goodness I was wearing a crash helmet and in riot gear. Mind you did manage to return the favour when the stars went away. I have always though that the gases they use today in close quarters were likely to cause just as much harm to the user as the culprit.
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Post by PaulG2 on Aug 8, 2016 1:15:23 GMT
I've had more injuries from colleagues truncheons then from any suspect, As for CS Spray......no easier way to incapacitate your mates :/ We had nightsticks based on the American batons, to me a lot more effective than a truncheon. CS etc had not been invented at least not to be used by the police in my day. As for getting hit by a baton injury, worst I had was a pickaxe hand across the back of the head, thank goodness I was wearing a crash helmet and in riot gear. Mind you did manage to return the favour when the stars went away. I have always though that the gases they use today in close quarters were likely to cause just as much harm to the user as the culprit. An ax handle to the back of the head - OUCH! Even with a helmet you're lucky you didn't have severe neck injuries. Those batons are pretty effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. I was reading somewhere lately that it's illegal for civilians to carry those. The shotguns with bean bag loads seem like they would be pretty effective non-lethal tools. The problem with shooting someone is you pretty much have to make sure you kill them, if for nothing more than you don't want there to be more than one side to that story.
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Post by Graham on Aug 8, 2016 9:14:00 GMT
We had nightsticks based on the American batons, to me a lot more effective than a truncheon. CS etc had not been invented at least not to be used by the police in my day. As for getting hit by a baton injury, worst I had was a pickaxe hand across the back of the head, thank goodness I was wearing a crash helmet and in riot gear. Mind you did manage to return the favour when the stars went away. I have always though that the gases they use today in close quarters were likely to cause just as much harm to the user as the culprit. An ax handle to the back of the head - OUCH! Even with a helmet you're lucky you didn't have severe neck injuries. Those batons are pretty effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. I was reading somewhere lately that it's illegal for civilians to carry those. The shotguns with bean bag loads seem like they would be pretty effective non-lethal tools. The problem with shooting someone is you pretty much have to make sure you kill them, if for nothing more than you don't want there to be more than one side to that story. In the UK almost anything that can be used as a weapon is illegal to carry in public unless there is a reasonable reason. If you are stopped in your car and it is search and the cop finds a baseball bat his first thought is offensive weapon and he needs to be convinced that you have it for a proper reason, playing baseball. We used to have shotgun cartridges that had a been bag sort of thing in them. They seemed effective at crowd clearance with minimum injuries. The batons could break bones in used the wrong way, and always left severe bruising. In the hands of an expert they could take a person down very quickly.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Aug 18, 2016 16:30:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 16:43:41 GMT
I shall be passing through on Saturday so shall be able to let you know what it's like.
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Post by loafer on Aug 18, 2016 16:49:07 GMT
I shall be passing through on Saturday so shall be able to let you know what it's like. Take a hard hat with you!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 16:56:20 GMT
We had nightsticks based on the American batons, to me a lot more effective than a truncheon. CS etc had not been invented at least not to be used by the police in my day. As for getting hit by a baton injury, worst I had was a pickaxe hand across the back of the head, thank goodness I was wearing a crash helmet and in riot gear. Mind you did manage to return the favour when the stars went away. I have always though that the gases they use today in close quarters were likely to cause just as much harm to the user as the culprit. An ax handle to the back of the head - OUCH! Even with a helmet you're lucky you didn't have severe neck injuries. Those batons are pretty effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use them. I was reading somewhere lately that it's illegal for civilians to carry those. The shotguns with bean bag loads seem like they would be pretty effective non-lethal tools. The problem with shooting someone is you pretty much have to make sure you kill them, if for nothing more than you don't want there to be more than one side to that story. A mate I used to race sidecars with did several tours of Northern Ireland, they used to swap rubber bullets for d cell batteries. I understand they left a rather nasty bruise...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 17:00:59 GMT
I shall be passing through on Saturday so shall be able to let you know what it's like. Take a hard hat with you! It's not the first time holiday traffic has been targeted. there was a post about two months ago on a caravanning forum about a guy who had his car and caravan brought to a halt buy guys burning trees in the road and then stated he was threatened by people who were obviously from the jungle. it was the middle of the night when he was travelling on the access road to the ferry terminal which passes right past the main camp. the police pitched up on his call to summon help but too late to apprehend anybody which seems about par for the course.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 17:20:18 GMT
Calais looked like a post nuclear holocaust in 2003, I can't imagine the migrants have made it any worse
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Post by naughtyfox on Aug 18, 2016 17:20:33 GMT
Our experience of Calais by the EuroShuttle train was that we were quickly on the main road and on our way to Ostende. The signposting on French roads is shite, however. I really don't know why the UK just doesn't invade France and take over.
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Post by naughtyfox on Aug 18, 2016 17:21:37 GMT
I once made a day trip to Calais and bought some cat food which had peas and carrots in it.
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