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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 12:32:44 GMT
I'm not a fan of your pet theory.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 20, 2020 12:36:02 GMT
We have one of those 'genuine Canadian' Caframo ecofans. If the motor packs up, or we need a new one, would I buy one? Yes. Most definitely does something, wafts warm air about, hopefully in the direction of the kitchen in whose direction we have ours turned. My other theory is that proper Scottish single malt whisky does not help cause high blood pressure, in fact just the opposite as it burns the fat away from inside one's clogged arteries.
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 20, 2020 12:36:06 GMT
And all this because it seems there is uncertainty surrounding whether or not you are still allowed a Paloma or similar. Maybe getting some clarification on that would be good. And also ringing up someone like Uxbridge Boats to idly enquire how much they might charge to install one (when the plague has passed). Once again, it isn't that difficult. I must admit it is still very interesting to learn about the various options, and the reasons why they are less good. I had sort of written off a Paloma style heater, partly because the cost of buying and installing is starting to approach that of a diesel water heater. I think I saw a quote of about 3k for supply and fit of diesel CH system, and my guess is that because it requires a gas safe type person to install (including the flue I would guess) the Paloma would be maybe 1.5k, in which case I might as well bite the bullet and go diesel CH. But you are absolutely right that I need more fact before I write it off for good as an option to fit to a boat. I'll get in touch with Uxbridge Boats and see if they can give me a ball park figure. What I'm hoping is that the broker I buy it from will be able to get it out of the water for a survey. I wont be haggling for ages, so if it's the right boat I'll aim to complete the deal within a day or two and hand the money over, or at least a deposit. In an ideal world I would be able to get a company to visit and install any systems it needs whilst its still out of the water, e.g that 38 footer would need a new skin tank installing. Just to add another dimension, bear in mind that diesel heaters of the Mikuni/eberspacher/Webasto kind, use a fair bit of current. Around 25A when starting up and then maybe 4 amps or so when running. One reason why they are not good as the main heating solution when off grid. Whereas an instant gas heater uses no current, well maybe a miniscule bit if it has auto-ignition.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 20, 2020 12:38:16 GMT
Propellor aeroplanes stay up in the air by magic. Their propellors are just for ornamental purposes. See? Not even moving!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 12:38:16 GMT
Cheers lads, that pretty much explains it I guess. It is extra complexity and a potential weakness built into an otherwise bulletproof heating system, plus it doesn't even do the job properly anyway unless you use a pretty large stove. And you can only use it say 4/5 months of the year because the rest of the time you'll basically boil yourself alive. Its funny how you can see something and think to yourself 'by Jove- what a lovely idea' (yes, I always think in a Ken Dodd voice), but anyone who's tried it can spot the massive flaw in a second. The other thing with a stove back boiler is that you need to ensure the water keeps circulating. It is highly unlikely to circulate through gravity from a stove at the front to a calorifier at the back, you need a pump. And if the pump stops due to no power or broken, the water stops flowing and the water in the back boiler boils. Have you ever seen a boiler explode? Superheated steam will remove all your skin and you will never need to shower again! The one boat I did fit a solid fuel wet heating system on was when I put a Rayburn in my narrow boat. And added a 28mm primary circulation circuit with 22mm takeoffs for rads and calorifier. It worked really well. I also open vented the flow and return pipes straight through the cabin top and put the header tank on the return pipe. No possibility of a build up of steam it it wanted to vent it was an available option . I did get a fountain of boiling water out the top once or twice when too much fuel went on the burner.. That was high luxury to be fair but burned shed loads of fuel and a lot of dirt created.
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Post by Jim on Apr 20, 2020 12:41:24 GMT
They are not very powerful are they? I'd say they disturb the natural convection currents around the stove a bit which might work out well or might not and get in the way of your pots of hot water. Slow and steady, they shift a lot of hot air over a period.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 12:41:52 GMT
And all this because it seems there is uncertainty surrounding whether or not you are still allowed a Paloma or similar. Maybe getting some clarification on that would be good. And also ringing up someone like Uxbridge Boats to idly enquire how much they might charge to install one (when the plague has passed). Once again, it isn't that difficult. he’s not bought the boat yet, so maybe buy a boat with one fitted already? Its not that I'm after a gas water heater specifically, but it would be nice to save the engine just for cruising, and have away of getting hot water without the engine, when moored up for a few days. So a diesel or paloma would be great if already fitted, and if I can get a boat with those then great. But I'm expecting there will be some boats that look really nice when I get a chance to visit some in person, and they'll all have different aspects that I'm looking for. So if a boat ha a great layout and has got a great solar setup, say, then I might say sod it and buy the thing, and then worry about installing a water heater afterwards. I'm not expecting there'll be a boat that ticks all the boxes, even on my fairly short list. It could well be that I just get used to using the engine for hot water and save the money on installing a water heater. E.g. that little 38 footer I saw at BWML already has a gas space heater if you just need a quick blast for half an hour, so it doesnt need CH. In that case a Paloma might be worthwhile at say £1.5k fully fitted. But after reading all the info here, I'm becoming less convinced that using the engine for water heating is as much of a concern as I thought it was tbh. It would certainly be nice, but if a boat doesnt have it, its not a showstopper
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Post by lollygagger on Apr 20, 2020 12:46:03 GMT
A small boat will be fine with a solid fuel stove and to install diesel CH just to heat the hot water won't really work. What would be cool, if there was such a thing, would be a far lower KW Webasto type diesel heater purely for the calorifier.
Also is the calorifier twin coil? If not you'd need a new one...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 12:47:40 GMT
They are not very powerful are they? I'd say they disturb the natural convection currents around the stove a bit which might work out well or might not and get in the way of your pots of hot water. Slow and steady, they shift a lot of hot air over a period. Sounds a bit like my woman!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 12:57:58 GMT
And all this because it seems there is uncertainty surrounding whether or not you are still allowed a Paloma or similar. Maybe getting some clarification on that would be good. And also ringing up someone like Uxbridge Boats to idly enquire how much they might charge to install one (when the plague has passed). Once again, it isn't that difficult. I must admit it is still very interesting to learn about the various options, and the reasons why they are less good. I had sort of written off a Paloma style heater, partly because the cost of buying and installing is starting to approach that of a diesel water heater. I think I saw a quote of about 3k for supply and fit of diesel CH system, and my guess is that because it requires a gas safe type person to install (including the flue I would guess) the Paloma would be maybe 1.5k, in which case I might as well bite the bullet and go diesel CH. But you are absolutely right that I need more fact before I write it off for good as an option to fit to a boat. I'll get in touch with Uxbridge Boats and see if they can give me a ball park figure. What I'm hoping is that the broker I buy it from will be able to get it out of the water for a survey. I wont be haggling for ages, so if it's the right boat I'll aim to complete the deal within a day or two and hand the money over, or at least a deposit. In an ideal world I would be able to get a company to visit and install any systems it needs whilst its still out of the water, e.g that 38 footer would need a new skin tank installing. You will have to pay both for the boat to be out of the water and the survey. A lot of people with a dry-dock seem to want around £150 for half a day. Daylight robbery but what else can you do (unless your mate has a crane lorry) ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 12:58:30 GMT
I must admit it is still very interesting to learn about the various options, and the reasons why they are less good. I had sort of written off a Paloma style heater, partly because the cost of buying and installing is starting to approach that of a diesel water heater. I think I saw a quote of about 3k for supply and fit of diesel CH system, and my guess is that because it requires a gas safe type person to install (including the flue I would guess) the Paloma would be maybe 1.5k, in which case I might as well bite the bullet and go diesel CH. But you are absolutely right that I need more fact before I write it off for good as an option to fit to a boat. I'll get in touch with Uxbridge Boats and see if they can give me a ball park figure. What I'm hoping is that the broker I buy it from will be able to get it out of the water for a survey. I wont be haggling for ages, so if it's the right boat I'll aim to complete the deal within a day or two and hand the money over, or at least a deposit. In an ideal world I would be able to get a company to visit and install any systems it needs whilst its still out of the water, e.g that 38 footer would need a new skin tank installing. Just to add another dimension, bear in mind that diesel heaters of the Mikuni/eberspacher/Webasto kind, use a fair bit of current. Around 25A when starting up and then maybe 4 amps or so when running. One reason why they are not good as the main heating solution when off grid. Whereas an instant gas heater uses no current, well maybe a miniscule bit if it has auto-ignition. Once again, thank you. I had read this somewhere but it just never sank into my thick skull. So am I right in thinking that, if you're moored up for a few days and you run the diesel CH for a few hours, you'll probably have to run the engine and/or a genny to top up the batteries? Or at least, a bit more so than you would have without the diesel heater... Ultimately I'll probably go with whatever water heater the boat that I like has- its not likely to be a decider. Diesel would mean I wont need new gas bottles as often, but then I dont like the idea of it running down the batteries more than they would be anyway by all the other stuff
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 13:00:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 13:06:01 GMT
I must admit it is still very interesting to learn about the various options, and the reasons why they are less good. I had sort of written off a Paloma style heater, partly because the cost of buying and installing is starting to approach that of a diesel water heater. I think I saw a quote of about 3k for supply and fit of diesel CH system, and my guess is that because it requires a gas safe type person to install (including the flue I would guess) the Paloma would be maybe 1.5k, in which case I might as well bite the bullet and go diesel CH. But you are absolutely right that I need more fact before I write it off for good as an option to fit to a boat. I'll get in touch with Uxbridge Boats and see if they can give me a ball park figure. What I'm hoping is that the broker I buy it from will be able to get it out of the water for a survey. I wont be haggling for ages, so if it's the right boat I'll aim to complete the deal within a day or two and hand the money over, or at least a deposit. In an ideal world I would be able to get a company to visit and install any systems it needs whilst its still out of the water, e.g that 38 footer would need a new skin tank installing. You will have to pay both for the boat to be out of the water and the survey. A lot of people with a dry-dock seem to want around £150 for half a day. Daylight robbery but what else can you do (unless your mate has a crane lorry) ? You know what? I hadn't even considered the hundreds I'm going to have to pay for dry dock and survey. It will be tempting if its say a 4 year old boat to not get one done, but its just too much money to risk...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 13:11:10 GMT
You will have to pay both for the boat to be out of the water and the survey. A lot of people with a dry-dock seem to want around £150 for half a day. Daylight robbery but what else can you do (unless your mate has a crane lorry) ? You know what? I hadn't even considered the hundreds I'm going to have to pay for dry dock and survey. It will be tempting if its say a 4 year old boat to not get one done, but its just too much money to risk... I'd be tempted to say a four year old boat is a safe bet but on the other hand... I once heard a tale of a deal done barring the survey. The boat was only a few years old and it was expected to be a formality. Except when the boat was inspected, it was found to have a rotten baseplate. Apparently the owners had mostly kept it in a marina but did not use a galvanic isolater when it was connected to the mains...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 13:21:23 GMT
Just to add another dimension, bear in mind that diesel heaters of the Mikuni/eberspacher/Webasto kind, use a fair bit of current. Around 25A when starting up and then maybe 4 amps or so when running. One reason why they are not good as the main heating solution when off grid. Whereas an instant gas heater uses no current, well maybe a miniscule bit if it has auto-ignition. So am I right in thinking that, if you're moored up for a few days and you run the diesel CH for a few hours, you'll probably have to run the engine and/or a genny to top up the batteries? Or at least, a bit more so than you would have without the diesel heater... And just wait till you start thinking about battery types and charging systems...so many hours of learning...
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