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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 23, 2020 1:59:36 GMT
Tempting, but do you think the wheelbarrow is included in the price?
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 23, 2020 2:13:08 GMT
Oh dear,oh dear,that really is sad.I can honestly say that beliefs have never ever come(no pun intended)before relationships. When I was younger... ..people used to leave their front doors unlocked. It was good then. Because I was a burglar.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2020 2:57:24 GMT
Tempting, but do you think the wheelbarrow is included in the price? Yes it was.
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Post by patty on Apr 23, 2020 4:42:10 GMT
I don't particularly favour one newspaper over another..there are some which I wouldn't pick up unless there was none other... I only used to read newspapers in the coffee shop so I'd read either the sun or the mail or the independent or whatever was there basically...didn't really bother me... The thought that I'm somehow judged by what I'm reading seems rather narrow minded....newspapers do not define who I am...not do they express my political views....I make my mind up when Ive read and listened to many views. I guess maybe blokes are more set in their beliefs and views.....
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Post by JohnV on Apr 23, 2020 5:38:57 GMT
To be honest, the carrying of a newspaper could be real time saver. Everyone is going to have their own version of this scenario of course, depending on their own political leanings, and this is just my own- but for me, if a date approached me with a copy of the Sun, Mail, or Express on her person, there would be absolutely no possibility of a relationship ever developing between us, and therefore no point in even carrying on with the date. Since 2016 politics has become such an intensely toxic and charged area of life- but also such an important part of a person's character- that I could never see myself in a relationship with one of the 'opposing' side. The differences in worldview have become too great, the arguments too bitter. So the newspaper would have saved both of us a lot of time. There is the other, bigger problem of course- which is that someone would have to agree to go a date with me in the first place.... The problem with newspapers is that they are all politically biased. Even the so called Independent doesn't give a true balance. And then, most readers of newspapers choose one that matches their own political views. So, if they weren't bigots when they first picked up that paper, they inevitably will be a year or two down the line. If people would only buy papers that had an opposing view that would be great. This might give them an understanding of what motivates the view that's opposite to theirs. This might result in them not forming the opinion that those who think differently are morally inferior to them. While it may not change their view, or political position, it would give them a more rounded view, enable them to make political arguments on the basis of knowledge and understanding, rather than simple bigotry. Sorry but I think that is crap .... The political alignment of newspapers varies over time and depending on the leaders and the situation (for example the Guardian was anti Gordon Brown and at that time was damning the Labour party with faint praise) The much (on here ) despised Daily Mail was a centre right supporter for the largest part of the last few decades and has only become an ardent Right wing supporter under the latest editorship. If I buy a paper which isn't often, I would probably go for the Times or the Independent (although the occasional "worthiness" of the Independent irks me) on the other hand I will read the Mail on Sunday (I like the prize Crossword ..... always send it off but never have won anything ) Most of the daily papers are just badly written. and some are no better than comics, in fact the Beano was more erudite ..... anyone who classifies someone by the political leanings of their reading material is either an idiot or a bigot. The political leanings of authors and journalists that I read do not matter to me, I am interested in it being well written, logical without glaring inconsistencies and informative. I will make my own mind up as to it's correctness.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2020 6:32:00 GMT
If people would only buy papers that had an opposing view that would be great. This might give them an understanding of what motivates the view that's opposite to theirs. ..... anyone who classifies someone by the political leanings of their reading material is either an idiot or a bigot. I'm not denying that there is an element of bigotry in this approach of judging your potential compatibility on a first date based on what newspaper they are carrying (not one they happen to be reading in a coffee shop, but one they've paid for). But I do think there's a degree of pragmatism also, given how mutually hostile the opposing political camps have become, and how much of a strain political differences can now put on a relationship. 'Judgement by newspaper' is not something I would suggest in general life or social/work interactions, but a first date is a very specific scenario, and personally, I would begin to make assumptions about a woman's political leanings if she were carrying the Mail or the Sun in her bag- and most times I think I would be correct. Realistically, it would at least prompt me to ask the question about political leanings early doors. I think the real issue is that politics has become so charged that it could now affect one's compatibility with a potential future partner- and it could be an issues between you that could lead to endless wearing debates and even hostility. That's just being realistic and recognising an area of likely friction. And it happened - hundreds, if not thousands of relationships were ended because of political differences between partners that were revealed in 2016 and exacerbated in the heated debates afterwards. I'm not saying its right, and I think Ricco has a point that people should make more effort to understand the opposing viewpoint (although I do draw the line at the idea of reading the Sun). General interactions are very different- I have several work colleagues that I have respected for decades, and that respect it still there, despite me finding out about their political leanings. I can and do still talk to them regularly, and make no outward expressions any differently because of their political leanings. But I cant deny that it has cast a slight shadow over our relationship, and my sense is that it's on their part also. There is a very slight distance, and I feel a slight guardedness from them, where before there was only camaraderie. I think that's not something unique to me, or even particularly unusual- for me its just a reality of today's Britain, and a manifestation of the deepening political divides. The sad thing thing is that few are making any effort to build bridges across these divides, and that is very concerning looking to the future. Having such deep fissures between groups in our younger population (assuming they are also present in younger groups) can only bring trouble in the longer term.
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Post by quaysider on Apr 23, 2020 6:55:09 GMT
I have close friends (hard to believe for a ginger gobshite I know) whose political and religious idealism's are WORLDS apart from my own... OUR respect for each other is what keeps us friends - not our differences of opinion.
I admit - older folk are MORE likely to be tolerant (well in my experience) and (for want of a better word) FORGIVE a younger persons beliefs with a 'let it go' approach (inwardly to stop them reacting)... the young however, I'm finding are more polarized... this extreme situation STOPS them from even entertaining 'the other side's' point of view - sticking hard-fastly to THEIR opinions THEY are 'right'...
It's a shame (for them) as this closes off avenues of friendships/relationships which are worth experiencing... I've learned to respect other people's points of view - even when I disagree with them venomously on occasions... There is good in most people... you just sometimes need to look through good eyes at them.
Where is the adventure in life if you only spend it with folk who agree with everything you say? - where is the challenge of expanding your own mind if you dont subject yourself to the opinions of everyone else?
Now - WHERE did I put my Sunday Sport???
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2020 7:05:10 GMT
Yes indeed , great post quaysiderShallowness has plumbed new depths with 'newspapergate' Rog
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Post by JohnV on Apr 23, 2020 7:11:23 GMT
..... anyone who classifies someone by the political leanings of their reading material is either an idiot or a bigot. I think that's not something unique to me, or even particularly unusual- for me its just a reality of today's Britain, and a manifestation of the deepening political divides. The sad thing thing is that few are making any effort to build bridges across these divides, and that is both sad and very concerning looking to the future. Having such deep fissures between groups in our younger population (assuming they are also present in younger groups) can only bring trouble in the longer term. What you are describing is not politics but tribalism. Politics is deciding which route to take, whoever espouses it. Tribalism is following your group wherever it leads. Has Politics become tribal over the last couple of decades ? Possibly probably ...... The reaction of many to the democratic vote of a majority to leave the EU was an example of this. I'm not talking about those who thought it "a good idea and the benefits out weighed the downsides" but the hysterical reaction "The world is ending, my life will have no meaning anymore" I watched a lot of that kind of thing in amazement. The hysterical denouncement of anyone who thought differently as Racists, xenophobes or just too thick to know what they were doing and the seeming belief that it was not democratic because they didn't get their own way, I found unbelievable. (The same kind of attitude on CWDF resulted in the formation of this forum) My sister believes the fault lies in the education system over the last decades, as she puts it "children are taught "facts", they are not taught to look at evidence and work out the truth for themselves" This uncritical world view is at the root of many troubles. What I find sad is that you understand what is happening but are not seeing that what you are doing is that same continuation of acceptance of a tribal belief. Some right wing views are lunacy, some left wing views are lunacy (especially Jim's but I'll forgive him because he's a clown) but the diametric opposite is also true
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Post by JohnV on Apr 23, 2020 7:13:30 GMT
oooh errr been so long working out my answer missed some .... good post quaysider
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 23, 2020 7:26:05 GMT
..... anyone who classifies someone by the political leanings of their reading material is either an idiot or a bigot. I'm not denying that there is an element of bigotry in this approach of judging your potential compatibility on a first date based on what newspaper they are carrying (not one they happen to be reading in a coffee shop, but one they've paid for). I had not heard of the word 'bigot' until I joined Canalworld. It's a word that gets dragged up for all occasions. Such as the word 'racist' and 'misogynist'. Misogynist was another unknown word to me until I joined Canalword (and it's travelled over here from there it seems). I didn't know I was one until it was pointed out here on Thunderboat. Funny how none of the women I have dated have not called me out on it. I'd say that yes, you can judge a person by their reading material. Looking at my bookshelf beside me right now I see a row of Wainwright books, which suggests I'm a fan of his and like hiking in the Lake District, and you'd be right. I don't think anybody actually buys newspapers of the dead tree variety these days, do they? There's the Metro for a 2-minute glance, to be found at railway stations, OK for splatting wasps in your boat against the windows. The Financial Times (the pink 'un) is also given away free at airports, as is The Times and Telegraph.
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Post by lollygagger on Apr 23, 2020 7:28:07 GMT
Nothing has really changed apart from the added ability to safely spout off on the internet without someone punching you.
100+ years ago the way to win a seat was have the most thugs to beat up the opposition supporters and disrupt any attempt at speechifying.
My gran, a true blue, worked in the cabinet/war office doing all she could to support the war. Her husband was a conchy who disarmed bombs and wrote for the Guardian. They got on just fine, she had nice legs even at 80.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 23, 2020 7:33:06 GMT
..... anyone who classifies someone by the political leanings of their reading material is either an idiot or a bigot. (although I do draw the line at the idea of reading the Sun). I don't think Soaraway Sun buyers can actually read - they just turn to Page 3 and grunt. I have worked with people who bought The Sun and, yes, they were thick. They would grudgingly let you borrow it if you asked nicely (if there was nothing else to read in your lunch break), and then they would roll it up and tuck it under their arm and take it home, as if it were something Precious. My Precious! You have to laugh really.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2020 7:34:10 GMT
More personally ... I didn't choose to share my life with someone I always agreed with (believe me that's a rare occurence) ... I chose to share with someone I couldn't contemplate being without.
The disagreements and differences are as important a part of any relationship as any other.
Restricting any interaction with others with different, even opposing views, must lead to a very one dimensional life don't you think ?
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2020 7:43:41 GMT
I think that's not something unique to me, or even particularly unusual- for me its just a reality of today's Britain, and a manifestation of the deepening political divides. The sad thing thing is that few are making any effort to build bridges across these divides, and that is both sad and very concerning looking to the future. Having such deep fissures between groups in our younger population (assuming they are also present in younger groups) can only bring trouble in the longer term. Has Politics become tribal over the last couple of decades ? Possibly probably ...... The reaction of many to the democratic vote of a majority to leave the EU was an example of this. What I find sad is that you understand what is happening but are not seeing that what you are doing is that same continuation of acceptance of a tribal belief. I'm not sure I'm 'doing' anything, other than describing a way of recognising a difference between oneself and another person on a first date, that could help you both avoid getting into a stressful relationship. There are many other 'signs' that people look for in each other on a first date- political differences is just one of them. And I can say that I have tried to reach out to colleagues and social contacts with regard to finding some common ground in the current political situation, many times and at great length. Never once have I convinced even one of them that there were any weaknesses in their reasoning on a major issue. And to be fair they have not altered my views either. Entrenched and immutable tribal politics are just the reality of today's Britain. Its not something I have the power to change even in the slightest degree, so I have accepted it. What I do try to do, when humanly possible, is to avoid getting personal, insulting, or even aggressive about these things. I would like to feel that if I can't change the current situation, at least I'm not contributing to escalating the hostility.
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