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Post by kris on Jun 11, 2020 8:24:11 GMT
You do realise having intimate relations with industrial lighting is a bit weird? I thought that was fairly normal. Why am I not surprised?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:24:17 GMT
I bet it was canary wharf security who asked for the statue to be removed. They take security seriously there. It will be replaced once the fuss has died down... They don't want a large group of idiots turning up and being annoying. Get the statue down probably makes that outcome less probable mathematically. Yep they do...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:25:51 GMT
I thought that was fairly normal. Why am I not surprised? I don't know. Why are you not surprised?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:26:12 GMT
Should we spend energy defending history ... or spend energy making the changes necessary ?
It's not about the history ... it's about our (society's) thinking .
Rog
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Post by kris on Jun 11, 2020 8:27:04 GMT
I don't know. Why are you not surprised? Do I really have to spell it out for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:28:08 GMT
I bet it was canary wharf security who asked for the statue to be removed. They take security seriously there. It will be replaced once the fuss has died down... They don't want a large group of idiots turning up and being annoying. Get the statue down probably makes that outcome less probable mathematically. Yep they do...
Canary wharf estate is privately owned but yes it is "pseudo-public space" and no you NEVER see pissheads congregating or any beggars. Never. Security with dogs and they mean business. I think that's better than it simply being a private gated area which seems a probable alternative.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:28:36 GMT
I don't know. Why are you not surprised? Do I really have to spell it out for you? Will you be able to ?
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Post by kris on Jun 11, 2020 8:29:36 GMT
Do I really have to spell it out for you? Will you be able to ? Not to your satisfaction.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:32:33 GMT
These words are well worth reading ... helps to focus the mind on the issue ... not the statues.
‘First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride towards freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says ‘I agree with you and the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a ‘more convenient season.’ ‘Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.’
Martin Luther King
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Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 11, 2020 8:36:17 GMT
I have largely. A few years ago I used to think about it all the time. Nowadays it's not so frequent. The time I save isn't wasted, instead, I think about surfing, collecting razor clams and the wonders that are industrial anglepoise lamps. You do realise having intimate relations with industrial lighting is a bit weird? Oh yes. I simply admire their patina and think: 'now, if that was a woman...'
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Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 11, 2020 8:42:30 GMT
Should we spend energy defending history ... or spend energy making the changes necessary ? It's not about the history ... it's about our (society's) thinking . Rog No, it's about a minority group trying to take over a majority group and change the world order. This is interesting: uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund?fbclid=IwAR3fWIH2EfG-b39q02uxCK14wX9zn2DfuHo6ybx4CyN1xXj6QwGNaV7JhScQueer people still exist, apparently. An assumption is made that other marginalised groups will automatically benefit. That's one hell of an assumption, given that the required changes are for the benefit of black people, and black people only. How much do you support this, would you see justice if your possessions and you future was taken from you at some time in the future, as this suggests, would you support this?
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Post by JohnV on Jun 11, 2020 8:45:26 GMT
Should we spend energy defending history ... or spend energy making the changes necessary ? It's not about the history ... it's about our (society's) thinking . Rog I
History doesn't change and doesn't need defending, it happened, end of.
Spend energy making the changes necessary ? by all means if they are necessary and not just the latest fad.
As I said in an earlier post, campaign to change some existing evil like modern day slavery, which exists all over the world.
It is totally pointless campaigning to change history or to eradicate what can stand there as a warning.
The evidence of the past needs to remain very visible and not just be known by a few scholars.
It's like Bergen Belsen .... If it had been eradicated it would not be standing there as a warning from history and showing the lies of the holocaust deniers to be what they are.
Our history is full of dark and light shades, without the dark, the light does not seem as important and as fragile as it is
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:45:54 GMT
Canary wharf estate is privately owned but yes it is "pseudo-public space" and no you NEVER see pissheads congregating or any beggars. Never. Security with dogs and they mean business. I think that's better than it simply being a private gated area which seems a probable alternative. Alternatively at planning permission stage there could be agreement that the 'law of the land' will apply to all the 'pseudo public space' with exceptions allowed provided they are agreed by publically elected officials.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 9:00:41 GMT
And suddenly a black man being killed by the forces of law and order, before our very eyes, is forgotten ... we can instead become indignant and anxious about Victorian memorabilia which is obviously more important.
Rog
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Post by JohnV on Jun 11, 2020 9:04:23 GMT
These words are well worth reading ... helps to focus the mind on the issue ... not the statues. ‘First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride towards freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says ‘I agree with you and the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a ‘more convenient season.’ ‘Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.’ Martin Luther King A great quote Rog but I think totally irrelevant to the current situation concerning symbols of the past. That quote was from a movement and a man concerned with achieving justice in the present.
Justice and equality has been steadily improving in this country over the years, ok, not fast enough but still moving on. BLM was triggered (supposedly) by support for actions in the USA.
There might well be a demand for improvements here but the situation in the two countries is not comparable.
Martin Luther King was not concerned with trying to eradicate evidence of past wrongs.
He was concerned with trying to end current wrongs.
A statue of someone who was involved in slaving hundreds of years ago is no more offensive than a statue of Julius Caesar or the Emporer Hadrian ...... removing them has no effect on a current situation but gravely threatens future understanding of what did happen. As I said about the monuments of the concentration camps, things from the past need to be there as evidence.
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